> There is no one to turn to and bully for compliance
> These attempts at curbing the freedom to write and distribute software are pathetic and will fail.
For Linux it will be way more problematic because:
- A lot of of corporate contributions comes from SV.
- Linux Foundation is incorporated in CA.
- Linus himself is CA's resident AFAIR.
So there is zero chance of claiming no jurisdiction. The only hope is whoever is enforcing this batshit wouldn't go after what is essentially not an OS for the purpose of the bill, but rather an internal component (it would be like going after a vendor of bolts and nuts for noncompliance of a toaster).
It's more likely to be an issue for distributions like Debian, Ubuntu, Red Hat, etc.
Although, if I'm understanding this correctly, I think all they would have to do to comply is have something during installation that asks for the age category, and write a file that is world readable, but only writable by root that contains that category that applications can read.
That is already way too much as far as I'm concerned. It's not that it's difficult, it's that it's arbitrary and a form of commanded speech or action. Smallness and easiness isn't an excuse.
If you write a story, there must be a character in it somewhere that reminds kids not to smoke. That's all. It's very easy.
I actually don't mind mandating the market take reasonable actions. The EU mandating USB C was an excellent move that materially improved things.
However I think mandated actions should to the greatest extent possible be minimal, privacy preserving, and have an unambiguous goal that is clearly accomplished. This legislation fails in that regard because it mandates sharing personal information with third parties where it could have instead mandated queries that are strictly local to the device.
Under no circumstances should we be “mandating” how hobbyists write their software. If you want to scope this to commercial OSes, be my guest. That’s not what was done here.
I'm not sure where the line between "hobby" and "professional" lies when it comes to linux distributions. Many of them are nonprofit but not really hobbyist at this point. Debian sure feels like a professional product to me (I daily drive it).
We regulate how a hobbyist constructs and uses a radio. We regulate how a hobbyist constructs a shed in his yard or makes modifications to the electrical wiring in his house.
I think mandating the implementation of strictly device local filtering based on a standardized HTTP header (or in the case of apps an attached metadata field) would be reasonably non-invasive and of benefit to society (similar to mandating USB C).
> I'm not sure where the line between "hobby" and "professional" lies when it comes to linux distributions. Many of them are nonprofit but not really hobbyist at this point. Debian sure feels like a professional product to me (I daily drive it).
"Professional" means you're being paid for the work. Debian is free (gratis), contributors are volunteers, and that makes it not professional.
What about Ubuntu? Its a combination of work by volunteers and paid employees, it is distributed by a commercial company, and said company sells support contracts, but the OS itself is free.
And there are developers who are paid to work on various components of linux from the kernel, to Gnome, does that make it professional?
Is Android not professional, because you don't pay for the OS itself, and it is primarily supported by ad revenue?
You've confused and confabulated like 11 different things there. None of what you said has anything to do with either what I said or what the law says.
The way this currently exists is basically unenfoceable because the critical terms are not even defined. It's not even ultimately intelligible, which is a prerequisite to enforcing, or even being able to tell where it does and does not apply, and whether some covered entity is or is not in compliance.
And then another state will pass a law mandating scanning of all local images, and another state will want automated scanning of text, and a different country will want a backdoor for law enforcement. We have to stop this here and now.
"Linux" is just the source code to the kernel, pure free speech, and it can't run by itself in order to ask anybody anything. Underage programmers will benefit from the education of reading it.
Stop spreading disinformation. Linus and others did most of the work in the kernel. GNU project on the kernel side was architecture astronaut vaporware aka "Hurd". They were much more successful in userland (coreutils, gcc and the toolchain, gdb, Emacs, to name a few).
I meant the userland specifically. By calling what is fundamentally a GNU system running on a different kernel just "linux" it makes people think linux and his crew made all of the userland, in part because saying a college student made "an entire operating system" is far more profitable for news agencies than acknowledging his important but overall relatively small role in what they call "linux"
Because the kernel is the irreplaceable piece. None of what GNU did is: there are numerous implementations of coreutils and shells and at least one non-GNU production-quality compiler toolchain (clang-llvm), a few alternative libcs. And many distribution do actively use the non-GNU parts. But none of this is useful without the kernel that is compatible with computers people have. And the only usable kernel we have is Linux (while BSDs are out there too, they take a much different tightly-integrated approach to userspace).
To add to this: I can appreciate the significance of GNU, especially in early Linux distributions, but the position of "GNU was the real OS, Linux was just the kernel" is also deceptive, IMO.
Sure, a lot of the userspace was GNU, but a lot of it ... wasn't. Things like PAM, the init system, and the network config tools, off the top of my head. A lot of system-specific tools come from "not-GNU", too.
You can't discount how much of early Linux was "GNU", and how big a deal GCC and GNU libc (and the rest!) were, but it's disingenuous in my opinion to call GNU an "operating system" that you just plugged Linux, the kernel, into. Even today, as far as I can tell, there is still not a true GNU system. Guix comes close, in terms of being "GNU-ish", but the most usable Hurd distro (AFAIK!) is Debian, where, again, a lot of components come from Debian, rather than GNU.
And, as you say, modern systems have drifted even further from being GNU. They have lots of GNU components, but so did, say, the Sprite OS, or a lot of 4.4BSD derivatives.
IANAL, but the whole thing feels quite problematic. Should we interpret the prohibition as a licensing condition "a resident using our IP is violating the contract" or as an informative note "we are not compliant and we are not ever going to be compliant so a resident using the IP is violating local laws"? I'd expect the intent to be the latter, but would it hold in front of a judge? If the notice is a licensing condition, the whole thing is problematic as hell:
- Does such prohibition has any legal force at all? Does it do anything to prevent responsibility according to the bill? Wouldn't just saying "CA/CO have zero jurisdiction over us, get screwed" be a saner choice (of course it would be better if the project wouldn't host on M$'s servers).
- The main project license is GPLv3. GPLv3 clearly has no provisions to introduce arbitrary prohibitions into the license without losing compatibility. But they still keep GPLv3 LICENSE.txt, which is problematic in itself - if LICENSE.txt says one thing and LEGAL-NOTICE.txt another, the conclusion might be that no license applies so no one may use the software at all!
- If they are reusing any GPL software that they don't hold copyright on, they might be or might not be in violation (would need a real lawyer to say if that's the case or not).
And on the actual matter of things, it's really sad to see California to be on the front line of this crap (this screams ageism). And, dear "adults", screw your parental authority so much. Whatever skills I've gained before the university I've done against an explicit parental prohibition. This is what I live off now. Screw you all.
> GPLv3 clearly has no provisions to introduce arbitrary prohibitions into the license without losing compatibility.
It's not even just that. The license expressly forbids adding other conditions and restrictions, and says that people who receive software, licensed under the GPL, with added conditions ore restrictions, can just remove those restrictions.
If the author really wants to add a restriction like this, they have to switch to a different license.
> And on the actual matter of things, it's really sad to see California to be on the front line of this crap (this screams ageism). And, dear "adults", screw your parental authority so much. Whatever skills I've gained before the university I've done against an explicit parental prohibition. This is what I live off now. Screw you all.
It's yet another surface that totalitarian parental control has crept into, and it's a serious problem. Young people kept strictly within the iron grip of their guardians generally aren't the ones who become happy actualized all-star adults.
Obviously there should be some limits on what teenagers and children can access, it shouldn't be entirely free reign, but robbing them of space to bend the rules severely limits their potential for growth and incurs a strong risk of extinguishing their spark.
> Obviously there should be some limits on what teenagers and children can access
Is it? The only people who should be deciding those limits are parents. If they fail to set and enforce those limits then any negative outcomes for the child are due to their own negligence, and can be adjudicated as child abuse per those laws.
Exactly. OS makers should build fine-grained parental controls into their OSes, and parents, and only parents, get to decide how much (if any at all) of that to enable for their children.
(And OS makers need to get better at this; from what I understand, it's not difficult for savvy kids to bypass parental controls on iOS and Android.)
If this were the late 80s I would wholeheartedly agree with you. But it isn't. Every device under the sun seems to have a web browser and wifi built into it at this point. Even most TVs are "smart" these days. If you told me that your refrigerator had a web browser and an app store I would assume you were entirely serious.
The internet is full of amazing things but it is simultaneously a largely unfiltered cesspool.
Imagine you live in the suburbs, but at some point the house to your left got demolished and replaced with a casino that doesn't ID anyone. The house to your right got demolished and replaced with a liquor store that doesn't ID anyone. And the house across the street got demolished and replaced with the headquarters of a local group of political extremists.
Sure, there also happens to be an award winning library a couple houses down. But that's largely irrelevant when it comes to the question of how you're supposed to raise children in this environment.
I don’t agree. It’s still ultimately up to the parent to keep an eye on what their kids are up to, talk to them and prepare them to handle ugly things (which they will encounter at some point whether you prepare them for it or not, no matter how hard you try to keep them in a bubble), and if they feel necessary impose restrictions on a household basis.
Even if I did agree, the implementations being rolled out present far more danger to adults than requiring an ID to enter a physical establishment ever could. Internet ID systems are rife for political abuse for example, and requiring age attestation at the OS level endangers general purpose computing, adds yet more hoops for free open source OS projects to jump through, and risks making FOSS OSes illegal to use for those who need an escape hatch from their commercial counterparts the most.
I agree with you about the proposed implementations. I don't think ID checks are justifiable and I definitely don't think attestation is acceptable as a public policy under any circumstance.
I agree with you that it's up to the parent to keep an eye on their children. But I also think that society has a duty to facilitate that. To that end, I think some minimal regulation regarding self reported content ratings for websites would probably be a good thing.
> But I also think that society has a duty to facilitate that.
I don't think anyone disagrees with that. The disagreement is around how intrusive the government should be in facilitating that. And some people (myself included) believe that these sorts of age checks and attestation are too intrusive, even if the stated goal is a good one.
Did you perhaps miss the part in the comment you're replying to where I said that I disagree with both attestation and ID checks? I went on to suggest a concrete method of facilitation whereby websites are legally mandated to self report content ratings.
Notice that the context here is a comment farther up the chain decrying the enablement of totalitarian parental control.
You be a parent and set limits on your children's behavior. You enforce it through the usual means. You don't rely on a nanny-state government to do it for you. That's abandoning your responsibility as a parent.
And let's not seriously try to say internet availability is the same as free-for-all liquor stores and casinos on as your physical neighbors. It's just not. It's still easier to restrict what a kid does online than it is to restrict their physical movements.
(And frankly, it's not that hard to restrict a kid's physical movements.)
You shouldn't apply that kind of thinking to global things. Because what you end up doing is nuking library on earth - there might be a casino somewhere near there. I see your concerns, but, ultimately, parent's carving for a comfortable illusion of control is less important than child's rights. And yes, I'll repeat it again, it's not child's best interest to have their surroundings controlled and censored.
And for reference, when I was talking about my personal experience, I wasn't talking about 80's. More like mid- to late- 00's Russia. The internet was already quite a cesspool at the time, the local IRL even more so. Just I wasn't interested. Once a teen is interested in getting into the edgy stuff there is no amount of regulation can stop them.
> Once a teen is interested in getting into the edgy stuff there is no amount of regulation can stop them.
That's really the thing too. I did grow up in the 80s and 90s, and I managed to find porn and all other sorts of things that my parents didn't want me to have or do. And I wasn't even a bad, difficult-to-parent kid. I was just a pre-teen and teen who wanted to do stuff my parents didn't approve of, just like pretty much every other kid on the planet.
In the end, I turned out fine! Not perfect (I have my issues, like most of us), but I'm happy and successful. I have no doubt that the same would be true if I'd grown up in the 00s like you did.
That's approximately my whole point. We have zoning laws. We have age verification laws. We have lots of ordinances about what is and isn't appropriate in public and around children and similar. You can't open a strip club across the street from a public school and I think that's a very good thing.
The vast global unfiltered internet is increasingly pervading our lives. I think it is entirely reasonable to enact minimal regulation that stems the tide with respect to a narrowly defined goal.
I really wish we would stop sticking wireless in every device. The spectrum is limited and the security concerns are just not worth it. And if you try to sell it, certifying will be RPITA even in US (rightfully so!). Just had to redesign a little Modbus RTU sensor prototype for mass production, noticed the old version used BT MCU. So I immediately imagined the certification nightmare - and the sensor is deployed underwater, it's not like BT will be useful anyway. Why? Quote "but how do we update firmware without a wireless connection"… How do you update firmware on a device with RS-485 out, a puzzle indeed. In all fairness, the person who did it was by no means a professional programmer and wasn't supposed to know. But conditioning beginners to wireless on everything - that's just evil. /rant
Not that you aren't factually right with regards to all modern technology being funded thru MIC, but USSR/Russia had exactly the same kind of MIC and has miserably failed at converting it to something profitable in the past. No reason to expect anything different this time - it's probably even worse because every successful entrepreneur that wouldn't leave the country ends up in prison. That said, there isn't much of good news for Ukraine either, sadly. The fat man slims down but the thin one starves to death.
USSR: kicked their educated jews out (twice -- pogroms & doctors plot), kicked most of their educated gentiles out in 1917, used up their remaining human capital as cannon fodder against hitler. Everything USSR had was gifted from the west to keep the west's military-industrial grift running (see Antony Sutton's works for details). They were a boogeyman used by western elites to extract wealth from their own taxcattle.
Modern Russia is a gas station and strip mine with decent relations to the south and the east. Not a phenomenal position, but a hell of a lot better than what they had. Building up their defense sector so that they don't get internationally looted again (i.e. the 90s) is the right move for them, and an unfortunate reality for us.
Aside from some factual errors, that's one way to look on things. Another one is that USSR's political top, however incompetent, released their personal fates are tied to their country, while the modern ones plan for a retirement elsewhere (or at least did so before SHTF in 2022).
> USSR: kicked their educated jews out (twice -- pogroms & doctors plot)
Sorry, that's not how it happen (source: my grandfather being a USSR Jew). Pogroms were before USSR (and were a huge factor in USSR becoming a thing) and before most Jews had access to upper education. The pre-WWII USSR was perhaps the most Jewish-friendly country in the world, or at least in Europe (however low of a bar it was at the time). After the purges and the war, with most of pre-revolution intellectual communists dead or worse and fresh-baked ex-peasant comrades now forming most of the bureaucracy, the pendulum came swinging back.
> kicked most of their educated gentiles out in 1917
Forced deportation was a few thousand cases, mostly humanitarians. Most of the educated gentiles left voluntary (showing their good judgement). And then emigration controls were put in place so the rest wouldn't leave - it's just 20's USSR weren't yet the totalitarian state it would latter become and had no machinery to prevent people from leaving.
> used up their remaining human capital as cannon fodder against hitler
Not like Stalin would not prefer to use cannon fodder elsewhere. It just wasn't an option at the time.
> Modern Russia is a gas station and strip mine with decent relations to the south and the east
That's what it was in the aughties. No more.
> Building up their defense sector
Russia already got damn nukes. That's the best defense against symmetric warfare the money can buy - and against asymmetric an inflated defense sector doesn't help much. Russia didn't built up defense sector because of any genuine or perceived threat, rather for the same reason USA does: it's a huge pork barrel.
> they don't get internationally looted again
Looted as in being sent food aid? (Well, truth to be told, this aid came with a heavy load of Mormon and Scientology cool-aid drinkers). The whole "90's looting" is tankies' legend. It was exactly the same kind of de-industrialization that happened in the West - except the social guards weren't in place and the state machine was totally collapsed. Which is certainly not a fault of any other nation.
> the right move for them, and an unfortunate reality for us.
The problem isn't "building up the defense sector". The problem is damn invading neighborhood country. Not only was it an asshole move, it was incredibly dumb because it leaves no good exit option. Even if the hostilities in Ukraine ends one way or another, the "new elite" aka bunch of goons with guns aren't going anywhere.
I know. Beside the point. The point is that 20th c. Russia/USSR's human capital had been obliterated.
> Russia already got damn nukes.
Old technology. Suicide. West has better weapons, like twitter (arab spring), autonomous drones, and whatever sonic/microwave mystery we used in Venezuela. Russia is behind.
> Looted as in being sent food aid?
Looted as in having state bureaucrats sell national assets to western corporations for pennies on the dollar, then buying soccer clubs in UK with their ill-gotten gains, as Russia's peasants starve and their birth rate collapses.
> The problem is damn invading neighborhood country.
NATO wants to put missiles on their doorstep. How would any other country respond? We would have glassed Cuba if Khrushchev hadn't taken his missiles back. US state department had been plotting the Zelensky revolution / Russia war since the Obama administration.
I am not a tankie. I am disgusted. We are skirting WWIII to prop-up the boomer pension ponzi scheme. We started shit in Ukraine (yes, WE started it) because the Russians were selling oil to Europe, diminishing the petrodollar in the process. It's also why we've kicked people's shit in from Afghanistan to Syria to Libya to Ukraine. Doesn't matter who you voted for, (D) or (R), the child molester uniparty was going to start that war regardless.
No. Putin started shit in Ukraine after the locals got feed up with his dear friend's blatant corruption and he took it personally. America was never ever a factor there. The world doesn't spin around USA, even Americans may think so.
> Zelensky revolution
Lol, Zelensky didn't came into public light until a year or so after the revolution.
he was the 2nd stage of the same (five eyes funded) revolution. install a puppet. bait putin. wreck economies throughout eurasia. profit. if you read the declassified correspondence of our baby-eater class, you will begin to see this for what it is, rather than some marvel capeshit fantasy of good vs evil.
I'm not related to the rest of the conversation, but the "NATO expansion" talking point is so egregious at this point that it's impossible to pass by and ignore.
> NATO wants to put missiles on their doorstep.
No they didn't. Joining NATO was never really on the table for Ukraine, because by the time there was political willpower, Russia had already created enough territorial disputes to prevent it from even being a hypothetical possibility. Not only was Ukraine never close to being in NATO, but you talk of "putting missiles" somewhere, which is like five steps further than that.
If they cared so much about NATO, you'd think they would've done something in 2004, no? When all the Baltic states were added into NATO, putting their borders 100km away from St. Petersburg and about as far from Moscow as Ukraine's borders are? And yet nothing happened...
Nothing was happening between NATO and Ukraine before full-scale war started. Russia could've kept the situation as it was indefinitely. They chose to go to war not because they were desperate and terrified of something, but because they thought they could win the war really easily.
Then when their war led to Finland joining NATO, Russia's official response was to look mildly displeased and forget about it soon after. Because they never cared about those borders. Those borders were close to them for close to 20 years then.
> US state department had been plotting the Zelensky revolution
The "Zelensky revolution"? The one where Zelenskyy suddenly hopped off the stage and became a US-backed revolutionary leader? Not knowing that he was elected a full government change after the revolution, all the way in 2019, shows that you know nothing of Ukrainian politics despite being so confident about it.
There's a weird consensus between Americans who really love and really hate their country that the US has its hands in all the cookie jars, and that nothing in the world can happen without America's involvement. Ukraine has a student protest that snowballs out of control due to escalations, resulting in the country preferring democratic countries over the bright future of becoming a Belarus-like slave state? Must have been the US. Sure, this definitely was something the US liked a lot, but the connections to it are a lot more tenuous than things the US did meddle in. Stop trying to pretend that Ukrainians have no agency and are just a cardboard cutout with Uncle Sam standing behind it. The US has a lot of power, and it has access to lots of variables they can tweak to try and influence the situation, but the primary parties here are Russia and Ukraine.
> done something in 2004, no? When all the Baltic states were added into NATO
Russians weren't happy about that either, but they were too weak to do anything other than complain. Now they are strong enough to retaliate. George Kennan was absolutely gutted by how stupid that expansion was[1].
> Stop trying to pretend that Ukrainians have no agency and are just a cardboard cutout with Uncle Sam standing behind it.
90%+ of mankind does what the signals (radio/newspaper/television/movies/music/textbooks/social media) tell them to do. Money controls the signals. Our Epstein class controls the money (global reserve currency). At least it used to. Ukrainians get the "fell for it" award. Only way to survive this onslaught is to block the outside signals the way the Iranians or the Chinese do. Europeans are slow, because they are only beginning to figure this out.
Their war would have been over before it began if it weren't for the funds and equipment we have furnished.
What we have of RISC-V mostly goes ARM route. The problem isn't ISA itself, it's the peripherals. Most x86 motherboards comes with ACPI that (while being an unholy mess of a specification) allows vendors to provide bytecode drivers for simple stuff like power regulators and fan controls. In theory ACPI and UEFI are cross-platform, but no SoC or platform vendor seems to bother. RISC-V embraced opensource which means you get a declarative devicetree specification, but no runnable drivers to go with it. So all peripheral drivers must be upstream to be usable. That's of course not realistic because SoC vendors don't give a shit about your problems (and because Linux isn't the one and only OS!). Interestingly, devicetree, originally conceived as a part of OpenFirmware, was supposed to go with a Forth virtual machine exactly for this reason, but that part never made it to RISC-V.
Paradoxically, Linux core maintainers prefer the ARM situation (as do RMS-grade FOSS fans). For them going x86 route means constantly getting blame for crappy code they didn't wrote. Not that I'm unsympathetic, but it really goes against users' interests. And again, BSDs and smaller OSes often simply doesn't have resources to support the myriads of platform hardware.
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