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Egoism is not bad - it's inevitable. Abrahamic values teach this literal self-hatred and "humans as innately evil" line but it has no basis in reality.

See the work of Max Stirner on a rehabilitation of egoism and why a union of egoists (differing from a society only in the voluntary nature of the association) isn't synonymous with "egoistic psudo-individualism"



> Abrahamic values teach this literal self-hatred

Have you actually ever read the "Abrahamic" scriptures? How about the Hindu scripture, say the Gita? Any Sutras?

Ego Sublimation is not "self-hatred". It is the next "inevitable" step.


I think so, too.

There's just not enough room and resources for a world full of egoists who all want to be snow flakes.


IMO forgiving yourself for your mistakes is much healthier than hating yourself for your mistakes, which is what I see out of secular people.


I didn't say that "all egoism is bad". A little bit helps you to stay healthy when helping others for example (if you're sick and weak you cannot help others anymore).

What I very much dislike however is this artificially pushed ego that a lot of people in the west have to force upon the people they deal with.

Personally I am not friends with people who don't manage to restrain their ego to benefit the happiness of the group and let others a chance to take part in it - we want to enjoy a good evening and not do whatever this one person thinks everyone "has to enjoy" or listen to his "heroic stories" all night long (do that on your birthday or with your sports team if they like that).

Also there's people who don't dominate groups as soon as they see one and it's weak empathy skills, ignorance and just rude behaviour to act like that. A lot of intelligent people notice that and though some women are sexually aroused by males who behave that "alpha way" it's not necessary to do that all the time (also some women are turned off by that so it depends on who you want to impress and if you have other qualities to show off).

I'm not familiar with the Abrahamic teachings afaik. This is no self-hatred, I love myself! I said I hate how I see things going on here in the west considering ego, individualism etc.

Also I don't say that humans are all evil starting from birth - I think many are just weak. They aren't strong and disciplined enough to be the best the could and IMHO a government has 2 possibilities here: a) help them to be better by giving them education etc. (at some level important for democracy to work at all) OR b) set constraints and punish those who don't respect them (money fines, jail,...) and/or incentivize good behaviour (give them some kind of credit which is useful for them to achieve goals or get something/somewhere).

Here in the west I know we have credit bureaus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_bureau) who already do such a thing. If you behave "good" (in their definition of course) you can lend money easier to buy a house. If you live in the wrong place for some time, have a criminal record or didn't pay back money in the past as you promised you are punished with a lower score which prevents you from lending a certain amount of money or anything at all.

So there is not that much of a difference here between China and the rest of the world - I think it's important to acknowledge that. China just went a step further and it's, well how should I put it, "China". Many people think they can judge their (govt's) behaviour and that the western civilization does a better job. Some even believe it's a communist country, which just isn't true but it helps to increase the old "C-fear" that still lingers in the brains of many westerners.

The Stirner example seems very constructed and I don't think you can see that condition in nature. Have you ever seen a group of egoists? I tell you something from work with young people - in the process of groups most of the times a leader-figure stands out of the group. When there are 2 people with a "big ego" and both won't accept the other one the group will either be split or one of the "alphas" will be pushed out of the group. That's just my experience. They don't get along well with each other because everyone thinks his opinion is the most valued and his well-being is the goal he tries to set as the groups goal but it just doesn't work like that.

Human history has shown that cooperation is the way to go and that implies finding a common goal and putting one's egoistic feelings and wishes aside to help the group achieving this goal.

I could go on like this but only will do that if you really want to discuss it.




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