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i'm not sure how it's the wrong context, but no matter. my point was that the semantic argument is entirely beside the point.

the real question is whether we should consider the externalized costs of fossil fuels in policy decisions, and if so, when and how?

fossil fuels have favored status (not undeservedly) across the world. given what we know now about how it's extraction/use effects the world, including on us humans, should we continue to favor it over other energy sources?

in my estimation, fossil fuels have a useful place in our energy history (as an energy intermediary), but can only be a stepping stone to a more sustainable energy future that more directly harnesses energy from the sun (our ultimate energy source anyway). on the way, we should reduce the harmful impacts of fossil fuels as much as possible, without regard to the profits of oil magnates.



"i'm not sure how it's the wrong context, but no matter."

Actually, this is important. The original article talks about government subsidies in the renewable energy market. It's only talking about direct subsidies and tax breaks, not externalities. In response, someone posted an IMF report about subsidies in the fossil fuel market as a comparison. This report does include externalities. This means that we are not comparing apples to apples. It creates the impression that governments directly gave $5.2T to fossil fuel companies in 2017, which is not the case.

My broader point though, is that the distinction between an externality and a government policy meant to deal with that externality is a useful and important distinction to make. Some people on this thread seem to be arguing that because they see no moral distinction between the two (this is debatable but doesn't matter to my argument,) that there should be no semantic distinction, but I disagree, and strongly.

For one, these things are measured differently, and the government policy is usually set in terms of the externality. Subsidies and taxes directly impact a government's budget whereas externalities don't (at least not in the same way) which matters when doing public accounting. Subsidies and taxes are mandated by law whereas exxternalities exist as a result of economic activity. Externalities can also be addressed by means other than taxes or subsidies.

By way of analogy, consider the reverse. There are both positive and negative externalities. We sometimes subsidize industries in order to encourage positive externalities. For example, schooling is often publicaly funded in first world nations because having an educated populace is a positive externality. If an untaxed negative externality is the same as a subsidy then it stands to reason that an unsubsidised positive externality is a tax. If in improving the appearance of my home I improve the value of my neighborhood (a positive externality) did I just get taxed the value of my neighborhood's value increase and am I owed a subsidy as a result? I think that most people would answer 'no'.


There’s one more important point: if you include externalities in your subsidy calculation you shouldn’t only count negative externalities. Maybe there are none but taxes on fossil fuels usually end up being very regressive taxes on people with older cars who can’t afford to upgrade. Just as one example of a potential positive externality of cheap fossil fuels.

And a negative externality of education might be forcing older workers out of jobs. (Admittedly a stretch, but making this just for the sake of argument.)

The point is once you start including externalities in your subsidy calculations things get super fuzzy fast.


Collecting taxes on these externalities does not say what you use those taxes for. The true cost is the inefficiency from poor resource utilization, hand that money out based on say income and people will buy more efficient cars etc.

Net result lives saved from cleaner air without undo burdens on the poor.


sure, the studies may not be exactly comparable, and pointing that out is reasonable and even helpful. and yes, costs (including externalities) are not the same as the policies (e.g., direct subsidies) addressing them. but there is a relevant term in policy and economics for non-monetary benefits: "indirect subsidies", so again, your semantic argument is on shaky ground.

anyways, these are unimportant relative to the acute problem that burning fossil fuels kills people as well as other creatures great and small (not to mention other retaliations by our planet), especially considering that renewable alternatives are becoming economically attractive.

so let's price in those negative externalities (which on the flipside is reasonable to view as subsidies to the fossil fuel industry due to their market distorting effects) so that the invisible hand considers all costs in its march toward the optimal allocation of global resources.




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