Glad to hear about this. I sued Facebook in a California small-claims court to rescind my purchase of the Quest 1 (and all accessories and game purchases) after I declined the change in ToS adding the FB account requirement. It took a while (negotiated with their customer support, then sued, then finally months later got an intelligent response), but we settled for what I asked for. I can't be the only one who got my money back. I liked the product except for the added account requirement, and I would now consider buying again.
I'm a little fuzzy on why people are upset at the idea of linking their Oculus devices to a Facebook account, but not to a Meta or Oculus account, which are surely part of the same data ecosystem. Genuinely asking, is there some reason to expect less – I don't know, zuckerberginess – from Meta or Oculus than from Facebook?
It's unknown what a Meta account will be, but I can explain the difference between a FB account and an Oculus one.
Having an Oculus account was pretty much like having a Steam account. It keeps track of your devices, your purchases, and you get emails or notifications (if you enable it)about products it thinks you want. Not perfect, but an a tradeoff I will accept for great devices and a good service.
Having to log into FB means you have to create an FB account, and they try to stop you from setting up a fake one not connected to your real phone number and emails. Using your device will mean that sometimes you have to log into FB which can be a real hassle on your home browser or phone. You have to think about leaving cookies, not leaving certain apps on your phone, particularly if you are on Android, and if you are a Quest 2 developer you are an Android developer so all the security questions are x2.
Plus, FB probably keeps this account you set up just to use your Oculus device and they post to it every time you buy a game or maybe every time you get an achievement. I have no idea if anyone actually has the misfortune to see those posts, but I wonder if they collect money on ads that are served to the accounts that have no other activity than automated Oculus posts. Someone here would know.
I love the Quest 2 and I am really happy FB is doing this. Thank you FB for this.
This entire rebranding is just a stunt to steer away from the mess Facebook creates in our society - it's still the same people in charge, even worse the Facebook people are moving more and more over to RL teams - so absolutley nothing will change, it will actually get worse as Facebook culture takes over.
Maybe some fun startup like Magic Leap or maybe Snap rebrands to Antimeta.
I don't disagree, but keep in mind that any VR headset is probably going to involve an account and a login. When I download a game from Nintendo or Valve I am signing up for something and giving them personal info.
We are going to have to strike some balances. It's really annoying to have FB (or anyone) mandate that you join a multi-platform surveillance ecosystem to use their hardware. On the other hand, a platform with a digital library-- like say a kindle-- requires a login and some personal info. We just need to set some limits so that companies don't abuse these relationships.
the balance is easily reached before the advent of facebooks' policy - you buy the hardware, you get to run _any_ software on it.
Some software require an account, but only because that software's specific needs (like VR chat would require some sort of account to identify a user).
Steam lets you use steamvr without having a steam account. The only reason facebook didn't is because they saw an opportunity to pull in people by force into the facebook ecosystem.
If your facebook account gets banned for some reason, you would lose your entire paid game library and would not be able to use the hardware you spent your cash on.
Bingo. I don't want my online persona to be tied to one account or company.
Big tech companies are pushing for a 360 approach where all you media, entertainment, work and even finance happens on their platform.
But what happens when one of their "AI" bots flags you for some arbitrary reason or they simply don't like you? Google is notorious for automatically banning accounts and it's virtually impossible to get a resolution. Bots ban you and bots "answer" you plea for resolution "We've looked into the issue and you're still banned. Bye."
So yeah, facebook bundling all their services under one account is not acceptable.
That's the big problem with these massive tech companies. They want to suck more and more of your life into their ecosystems, but they don't want to take on the responsibility that comes with it.
When losing your account just meant not being able to look at a few emails or social media their attitude was (almost) acceptable, but when losing access to your account could mean not being able to pay for things (apple pay, google pay), not being able to access stuff you've paid for (any digital content purchases through the account), possibly not even being able to access your phone; then it becomes a more serious responsibility and just suspending an account for arbitrary reasons is no longer acceptable.
Unfortunately, the tech companies don't seem to have got the message and still regularly ruin people's lives by banning accounts for no discernible reason and giving no recourse to getting them back.
I think if they are going to continue on the course they are on there needs to be some sort of campaign to force them to take more responsibility and to give people a proper channel to get bans investigated. Enforced by some sort of ombudsman or something.
Another option could be that if an account is banned for ToS violations the account holder can still log in and access "essential" services such as payments, plus have read-only access to stuff like emails and photos so they can still rescue their lives.
> Another option could be that if an account is banned for ToS violations the account holder can still log in and access "essential" services such as payments, plus have read-only access to stuff like emails and photos so they can still rescue their lives.
In some countries (France?) requires that online purchased products are transferable like in the real world. Mostly this is used for game resale, but it should enable you/the company to transfer purchases to a new account. "You banned me, but give my wife the games I bought"
Now your Meta account can get banned for some reason. I assume the ToS will be very similar. It's a platform, you can say things on it, you can potentially abuse people on it.
There may come a day where the world is utterly broken for the unaugmented, just a confusing sterile landscape camouflaged in QR codes. Getting kicked off the Metaverse will be a terrifying form of exile. But it will all be a private company's decision, so that will make it OK.
It is still better to keep as many accounts separate as possible. At least right now if you get banned from Facebook your google account doesn’t get banned also. And though I have never been banned from Facebook I wouldn’t want to tie real life game purchases to a social media account where saying the wrong thing might end you up in trouble. Hard pass.
Not being banned is nice, but keeping your accounts separate does nothing to prevent the data points you mentioned being linked, especially within the Meta ecosystem. Even outside of the ecosystem, there are billion dollar companies that are very very good at tying together all your 'unrelated' accounts/data points and selling these packages to the highest bidder. It's prudent to assume that big brother and anyone else who cared enough to look could link said activity to you.
Of this list only one of these creates an account that is searchable and contactable by the general public, and only one of these will ban you if you use a profile photo of anything other than your own face.
This has actually happened, too! I remember a big article about it on HN. Unfortunately I have no time to scrounge it up, but perhaps someone else remembers and can link to it.
IIRC there’s also a similar lawsuit against Apple. Someone who had purchased quite a lot of content with their Apple ID had their account suspended. I don’t recall the details either but I do remember reading their complaint and thinking they had quite an interesting and creative angle to get around Apple’s TOS that purport to allow Apple to cancel your account at any time for any reason.
Isn’t that true for Apple, Google, Amazon and Microsoft as well? I have games on Xbox, movies in iTunes, books and audiobooks with Amazon. I’ve hedged my bets but it still would be non-trivial loss for me.
This is a problem in general (not just FB) but, here are some apps I'd like to run on a VR device (Quest) but I don't want FB/Meta or anyone else to record that I'm running them or how often.
This is also a reason I will personally never buy an adult game from Steam. I don't want my gamer account and my sexual preferences to be linked.
Let me also add that inside out tracking means effectively the device is filming me in various states of undress and I have to trust that they aren't collecting any of that data for "quality assurance" etc...
And with FB/Meta, that same data is data that's used to connect me with my Mom and family on FB. No, just, no!
admittedly a very personal reason but I _don't_ want to be able to log in to facebook. Each property of theirs has it's own flavor but I personally find facebook with its treasure trove of decade old memories and connections to people i haven't seen in ages to be a bit of a despair and depression pit.
I deleted my account specifically cause I felt like "why am I still looking at this stuff?"
I would love to be able to use oculus or instagram (which i can now) without an FB account. Recently I created an account to use ad manager for my job and it's been really annoying how many friends (from the past) I get suggested and how much the algo seems to want to rebuild my old account...
I used to practice law, so the process is a little more natural for me. Summary:
1. I read the terms of service that I originally agreed to. Found a requirement to first negotiate any dispute with their general counsel in good faith. So I wrote to them explaining that I declined the change in ToS terms, and asked for a refund of everything I'd purchased in connection with the headset, plus the dollar amount that it added up to. Sent by registered mail. Waited a few months, got no response. This was summer 2020.
2. Filed a support ticket basically saying the same thing. I got very prompt responses but of course they were templates -- sorry, 30-day return window has expired, please create FB account, etc.
3. Drafted up the small-claims complaint. This is actually a very easy and short form in California.
4. Sent a courtesy copy of the complaint to Oculus general counsel. This can sometimes get their attention and resolve things right away without involving the courts. No response.
5. Filed the complaint, then served Oculus/FB at their Sacramento address for their registered agent for service of process. This cost something like $100 (filing + service).
6. Got a summer 2021 court date.
7. Sent them another courtesy reminder that the court date was approaching and asked to resolve before trial.
8. In the late spring of 2021 got some activity on the support ticket saying sorry for the delay, please dismiss the case, we'll send you the $$$ plus a box to ship back the goggles.
9. I accepted their offer, shipped the stuff back, got the $$$, and filed a dismissal of the case.
Total wall clock time > 1 year. Actual human time on the case probably 5 hours. Out of pocket expenses about $100, which I added to the settlement demand, and which they paid. So I ended up back where I started before the Oculus Quest purchase, except for the time I lost writing the court papers and support/legal communications. Which is what I wanted and expected.
As I hope you can tell, I wasn't angry or out for revenge. I just didn't want the FB account requirement, and I especially didn't like that they tried to change the contract terms after we had a deal. It was just a business deal to me, and that takes pretty much all the emotion out of it, which can make many legal cases easier to resolve.
Here's where I'd suggest hiring a real lawyer (currently practicing as a litigator in California) for an assessment, but here's my guess. Worst case is I lose in court, which is just wasted time and $100. There's no further downside than that, since they didn't countersue (and couldn't have). In that case, I'd keep my goggles and have the choice whether to throw them away, sell them, or suck it up and do the Facebook account thing. Or wait until today and learn that they'd dropped the requirement.
I bought a Quest 2, three weeks ago. Tried to set it up. Already have a Rift S with an Oculus account. To use the Quest 2 required me to switch my Oculus account to FB. (Not gonna happen). I tried 8 times to create a new FB account, it failed the first 7 (no idea why, nothing about the data I entered was strange). When it finally worked the device would not pair with my iPhone6S+ (which I used as it's on a different Apple account than my FB and FB app). It failed to pair which was enough for me to just say "f this" and I took it back.
If they drop me having to associate my Quest usage with my FB account I'll be happy to go buy one again.
During lockdown, my son's school delivered lots of material through Facebook. Despite quitting 8 years ago, I signed up again. I didn't add any friends or make any posts, though, and within days the account was blocked. When I tried to sign up again, it said my phone number was blocked. I contacted the "you've blocked my account in error" service twice, submitted documents - didn't hear anything back.
I think this speaks to my issue. Facebook is far too ban-happy and obsessed with verifiable identity for me to ever be comfortable associating it with an expensive piece of hardware.
