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It's interesting to see people rediscover this idea of "develop locally, push static site to web," but I think the weirdest thing for me is, why was this not a continuous thing?

Broadly, this looks good for a blog format, but not sure if that's what people need?

Anyway, for those interested, I just use http://zim-wiki.org plus a custom CSS template I did.



> It's interesting to see people rediscover this idea of "develop locally, push static site to web,"

Yes! Dreamweaver was good 19 years ago and remains good today. Being able to see what you're doing, without running like treacle in the browser whilst editing (I'm looking at you, Divi and other WP visual theme builders), is an awesome experience. Like professionals in many other fields expect from their software.


I used dreamweaver when they had coldfusion integration. We ended up using the wysiwig just for verification because it would make the code so bloated (by late 90's standards).

I recall using HotDog Professional for my personal stuff. Anyone else use it?


I remember using HotDog pro back in the day. I don't remember much about it though, even how much I used it.


Yup, I used HotDog Pro for a while and moved onto HomeSite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macromedia_HomeSite) at some point.


I remember being one of the first users of Hotdog. Sending heaps of bug reports and feature requests, and in the end even having the author over in Belgium to negotiate a European distribution deal.


Many other fields do not have to edit turing complete results. Also you don’t need WYSIWYG but WYSIWTG, since you want to see what THEY will be getting, they being endless combinations of systems.

I was there, too. Dreamweaver was not good enough.


Dreamweaver all too often spun nightmares


> Dreamweaver was good 19 years ago and remains good today.

Notepad.exe was good 19 years ago.

Dreamweaver? Not so much.

:)


Dreamweaver was a good idea, but impossible for them to maintain. In my experience it was regularly giving bad results.

It was a great tool for learning HTML and CSS though, but mainly because you would always end up just going into the source to fix it and view in DW.

I would be very nervous of anyone using it these days for anything else.


I'm actually curious to see what Dreamweaver looks like these days, because I just recently found out that it's still around. I haven't seen it since like 2009 and I honestly thought it had been shut down.


It's still around, but it's no longer being improved, just getting maintenance. Most of the people involved with it migrated elsewhere.

Most who used Dreamweaver and relied on its extensions are now using another similar app called Wappler.


For those that are into Bootstrap then Bootstrap Studio is also a good option which I found produces pretty decent results.


Yep, I'm a fan of Bootstrap Studio, if for nothing else than the fact that it's not a subscription product.


>Dreamweaver was good 19 years ago

Good for what ? I remember designers trying to create pages with and the generated code was useless garbage once the customisation requests came in and they called in a dev


I would say Dreamweaver was OK, but it was eclipsed by the web-based CMS. Dreamweaver generated trash code when it was used as a DHTML design tool, but it was never as bad as FrontPage. When used in design-mode it would build up a model internally, and then try to generate code that it could later roundtrip. This worked when things were isolated, but as complexity grew it stopped working and was hard to debug.

I saw it work reasonably well when someone took a code-first approach with the overall website templates which avoided the mess from building these up using DW's code generation. You could then set it up so people could only mess with the certain parts of the page which avoided the overall site getting messed up as you added others. This got cleaner when they introduced Contribute.

Dreamweaver was created for a time when there was still a webmaster-type role in companies. These people didn't necessarily have what we'd consider a strong dev skillset, but the world around them had started to change which explains the range of capabilities in Dreamweaver.

If you want to see some terrible server-side code generation, you should checkout Drumbeat (https://macromedia.fandom.com/wiki/Macromedia_Drumbeat).


>why was this not a continuous thing?

Because we wanted Dynamic webpage back then. Or at least dynamically generated webpage when something is updated, like links and comments ( When every site was still hosting their own comment sections ). Develop Locally and push Static Site to web may work on Web pages, but doesn't really work for website with some traffic or what we called blog today.

Especially when we were on HDD and single core CPU, updating a few hundred pages takes quite a bit of time. Before uploading tens of Megabytes of Data that takes hours on 56K or ISDN. Compared to being hosted on the web where everything was a press of a button.

Now we are on SSD, where our IOPS is anywhere from 100x to 1000x faster. Even updating sites like Tomshardware or Anandtech should only take seconds. We have Gigabit Internet, uploading should no longer be a problem.

I think vast majority of web site could simply be Static pages, with a small dose of javascript. And may be in the future you could even install your CMS on iPad or iPhone. There is no need to worry about anther Tumblr or Geocities taking down all your content. Your content will stay on your device, and possibly with some sort of Cloud Data Backup. ( iCloud or Google Drive )

This is actually something I keep talking about since ~2017. ( I cant believe that is 5 years already ) So I am glad we are finally moving in that direction.


> why was this not a continuous thing?

We had the likes of Netscape Composer, Front Page and Dreamweaver. They produced mountains of un-maintainable and not non-compliant html code.

When HTML5 came along there was a big push for compliant sites. Also it made sense to have a developer use the power of CSS3 to handle layouts and responsiveness elegantly. So the WYSIWYG editors fell out of favour.


As opposed to what we have now? :)


I always preferred it that way myself. Used netobjects Fusion for years and many sites.

From what I remember, the push for html5 and super lean / clean / and 'validating code' for google search results made it difficult for the older tools to stay in favor.

Also the move to mobile.. and not just "m.site" - making so javacript / bootstrap type things came to be favored for a while (lack of grid / flex in browsers at the time) - which mostly required text editors instead of wysiwyg.

the business models for investing in software were shaping cloud things around that time (some say for better, I say for worse) - so webflow, wordpress, adobe cloud everything, and similar had a chance to do the things that stand alone download and own software could of been doing.

Faster internet being more prevalent and such of course helped with these things.

I've been itching to spend a couple hours testing pinegrow site building ( https://pinegrow.com ) to see if it is reminiscent of the netobjects days.. and now that wordpress is getting increasingly painful to use and maintain, I'll likely get to that sooner than later.


I think that user experience of website builders with wysiwyg and drag and drop UX won over time. Then, as time passed by, website builders become bloated and complex. Once again you needed a professional to maintain your site in site builder.

So now simple solutions, static HTML, free or one-time fee CMSs are sexy again. (economy is not good, who wants another subscription?)

I know because 14 years ago we have created static, drag and drop CMS that people still buy today. People value basic features. And it's hard to make a complex software that's easy to use.

Basic features are still enough, after 14 years. https://sitecake.com


This might be good for a personal blog where you have it local on your machine, but want a blogging interface that's separate from your coding tool (VSCode, etc).

The problem is that if you have to pull down the site to edit content, it defeats like 99% of the use cases of a CMS. The whole point of a CMS is to provide an interface for editing a website without editing code directly and not having the code on locally to make edits.


I mean, it's been pretty continuous? Dreamweaver to Hugo to Next/SvelteKit/etc. is a pretty straight line.

The inability to have interactive data-based content in static sites is why I went away from them, but the ability to progressively enhance a Next or (especially) SvelteKit site with data-y bits when it makes sense has gotten me in the habit of using them. Kind of a fan.


Would be interested in seeing your website if you might care to share it?


http://jrm4.com

With this:

https://github.com/jrm4/Eight-Five-Zero

(Kind of messy, but it's utilitarian for my work and such)


Thanks. A lot of good resources on your site!


Thanks, I think the thing that has served me the best is how easy and quick I've made it to update. I open zim (which is a native app, no login or anything), change what I need to change, and have a short little SSH/rsync shell script that updates.

It's really nice that I can update the website in the middle of class as I'm teaching with very little issue.




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