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We will see the return of capital investment on a massive scale (themarket.ch)
81 points by programmarchy on Nov 3, 2022 | hide | past | favorite | 43 comments


Let's be honest: prolonged "financial repression" is effectively soft default of governments. It can work fine in the short term, especially with elevated instability abroad (as usual the US benefits quite immensely from it relative to other countries), but try to run economy in such mode for 5-10 years and investors will stop financing government deficits and the system devolves into government simply printing money for itself. It quickly (on historic scale) erodes trust in the financial system, leading to its accelerated degradation. Government's inevitable malinvestments financed by the printed money will only add fuel to the fire.

Just look at Japan. Now remember that it's the world’s largest creditor nation, while the US and many EU countries are huge debtors. In the past foreign governments and investors were happily financing both of them, but now they are calling on the debt and sanctions against Russia only accelerated the process. If you think that in such conditions you will have enough leeway to finance the "capex boom", you probably will be quite disappointed. Japan and the UK are nothing more than the first cracks in the dam, I am more than certain that we will see much bigger events in the near future.

All in all, it seems that we move according to the Ray Dalio's scenario of long-term debt cycles.


It has been working for the US for a very long time and will continue to work as long as the US dollar is the world's reserve. Even the Chinese can't stop using it.


According to Napier using his experience in Asia, governments will shrink the economy, making government debt the most attractive investment (especially for pension funds that need short term growth and stability) and then use that power to release government-backed credit to politically-favorable industries like energy, climate-change, construction etc. Effectively nationalizing the economy, pushing aside the central bank, and slowly eating up the savings of those who saved with inflation, while supporting companies who take on debt to build local (capital expenditures).

That will keep going until people overthrow said government (most likely with another with a collection of favorite industries to subsidize), but that won't happen for a while because most people will enjoy the growth in local making at first. The failure points come because the government doesn't know what is actually needed and starts spending on stuff that is not needed (creating bubbles in construction like China with cities that stay empty) or starts a war (defense is an industry too, plus hard to overthrow a war-time government).

Europe has started down this path already, while the US and Switzerland still stand as free market economies drawing in all the fleeting investment cash, until they bubble too much and lose their currency.


Your first paragraph pretty much describes what happened in France between 1946 and the beginning of the 50s (the war shrunk the economy but the rest).

Why do you think the government would be overthrown? It’s merely redistribution. It will just last for a couple election cycles.


"and slowly eating up the savings of those who saved with inflation"

Do people really sit on cash as it's being devalued by inflation anymore? I thought savings of all types were at historical lows since the 90's where nobody saves, has debt (e.g. mortgage & credit cards), or invests in the stock market in some form - which has become incredibly easy to do over the last 2 decades.


That was an extremely well written explanation of his viewpoint on the future. Government providing guarantees leads to a weaker central bank and all the ramifications that would have.


I'm unconvinced that the power of those load guarantees can be in any way compared to the massive post war interventionism that, at least in Europe&UK saw large scale nationalizations in key areas.

Sure, a green loan guarantee spurs investment in that area but the business model must still be sound or it will be falter in the marketplace. And if government steps in and, say, also guarantees an energy price, that's just another form of taxation for the consumers that must pay the costs of a political choice in energy. This will quickly hit a wall of resistance from consumers if that particular technology is a mallinvestment.

Furthermore, the loan guarantees themselves might not be officially counted in the debt to GDP ratio, but rational investors will be aware of them and price government bonds accordingly. A state that over-guarantees bad loans will see trouble servicing their debt in the marketplace, and at least in Europe the well known structural fragility of the Eurozone will amplify those shocks and bring them into the foreground.


Would you approve of the comparison to postwar interventionism if you saw large scale nationalizations in key areas? Like if big EU energy companies, say EDF and Uniper, were to be nationalized?


Post war interventionism included energy utilities, which in many cases were rebuilt from the ground up, but also transport, rail in particular, telecommunication, extractive and heavy industries - and it happened in economies with a much smaller tertial services sector.

I don't know what the equivalent contemporaries would be, but in any case we would need to see public spending or nationalization on a scale incomprehensible to the current neo-liberal european business climate, not just some puny guarantees & price ceilings, which are not very sustainable anyway.


It doesn't just lead to problems for the central bank, it's also a waste of taxpayer money and shares many of the same issues as any other kind of central planning.

High inflation also only makes a dent in existing long duration debt. It doesn't do anything to reduce existing short-term debt, nor to reduce the real cost of new debt that comes from new deficits (at least for government debt).

(That is because short-term debt needs to be either paid off or rolled over.)


I'm not quite sure why everyone always warns about high debt levels, but nobody seems to care about high equity levels?

Both debt and equity are just different points on a spectrum that you mix-and-match from to can structure the liabilities side of your balance sheet.

However as the linked article points out, the big difference here is not debt vs equity, but that governments step in with tax payer money to guarantee the value of debt in a way that they don't do for equity.

Those government guarantees are the real deal, whether that's an explicit guarantee or the implicit 'too big too fail'.


I'm confused, you don't go bankrupt from too much equity. There isn't an existential threat with too much equity. Why do we need to worry about it?


Well, what is bankruptcy?

Bankruptcy just means that the company's old equity is 'deleted' and that what used to be debt gets turned into equity.

Nothing about how the company operates has to change. In principle, workers can still make the same products, customers can still buy those same products etc.

Airlines are the prime example of this: airlines go bankrupt all the time, you could almost say it's part of their business model.

Of course, the process of bankruptcy also often comes with big changes in how the company operates. But you also often see those big changes and turnarounds without any bankruptcy.

(Those big changes can even include shutting the company down.)


Yes, but equity holders don't have mandatory service payments. So they can't force a bankruptcy. Too much and it might make it a poor investment, but it doesn't affect cash flow. It's not a public emergency if a big company becomes too diluted.


In the abstract, you're not wrong that the managers of a business have a lot of freedom to tweak debt/equity ratio to fund their operations and capex. But from the perspective of an investor, debt and equity are as different as night and day. If nobody wants your equity then you don't have a lot of room to adjust the ratio.

High debt means high leverage. Low debt means low leverage. Whatever you are calling "high equity" is just low debt, because (as you said yourself) they have a direct inverse relationship. Unless I'm missing something here...


Well, as an investor I don't need to care too much about the debt to equity the company either. In the abstract, I can just buy all the liabilities of the company in question and adjust the leverage of my portfolio by mixing in risk-free assets or borrowing myself.

> If nobody wants your equity then you don't have a lot of room to adjust the ratio.

If literally nobody wants your equity, its price would be 0. I assume you are talking about your equity having a low price instead?

You can still take on debt to buy back shares (or pay a dividend) to lower your outstanding equity. Or you can issue shares to pay back debt.

Or you can use retain profits to pay back debt, lower both the absolute amount of equity and debt.

All of these moves are possible when your share price is low.


Sure. There is indeed quite a bit of flexibility in adjusting the leverage of a business, assuming that it is still a going concern.

So was your comment about "high equity" just about leverage? Like, everyone worries about high leverage but no one seems to care about low leverage (which could be an inefficient capital allocation)? It's just an unorthodox way to put it, that phrase


People seem to be worried about the total amount of debt.

At most they compare debt to GDP. You almost never hear these panic pieces talk about debt vs equity.

Btw, if people are worried about debt, the first thing we should do is put equity financing on the same footing as debt financing.

As it stands, companies largely service their debt with pre-tax money but pay for their cost of equity with post-tax money.


> nobody seems to care about high equity levels?

By "high equity levels" do you mean high levels of government ownership of corporations? Or do you mean high equity valuations?

If the latter, there are certainly some who voice concerns. For example John Hussman:

https://www.hussmanfunds.com/category/comment/


> By "high equity levels" do you mean high levels of government ownership of corporations?

I was leaving that a bit ambiguous, because concerns about high debt levels are also often ambiguous about government debt vs private debt.

However the equivalent of government debt is not government ownership in corporations, but people owning equity stakes in governments.

(State owned companies are a problem, but not the problem I wanted to talk about in this comment.)

Yes, there are some people voicing concern about stock prices.


What does a high level of "people owning an equity stake in government" mean? Universal voting rights? UBI 'dividends'?


I don't know. Perhaps that, or perhaps tax farming?

I just know that it's not government owning other entity's equity.


The operation "paying off debt" doesn't exist. This is because positive interest rates imply demand for debt outstripping savings. For debt to be paid off, the interest rate would have to reflect savings outstripping debt and forcing a reduction of savings as there cannot be monetary savings without debt, it would be just an empty piece of paper otherwise. In such a scenario, you would need a negative interest rate but since that isn't politically feasible. The only path you can take is through inflation and positive interest. This is what Keynes meant by gold digging, if private business and political interests prevent the obvious and rational solutions, then even the dumbest solution will be better than nothing. So, rather than implement a mechanic that allows a nominal reduction in debt, we need a central bank that constantly keeps inflation high enough to not let ourselves drown in debt, which is why the target is 2% and not 0%.


As an armchair sceptic — ask 100 economists how the world in economy will fare in the next 20 years, and not only will you get 100 different answers, you'll still manage to find one that hits the mark every single time.

That doesn't necessarily mean they knew what they were talking about. Could be they just got really lucky.

In a recession we're always looking for a way out, a silver bullet, someone to whom we can hitch a ride (and our money) to.


You're not wrong, but that's why you always listen to their explanations for their predictions. The mental models that generate these predictions are where the wisdom lies.


If you only get 100 opinions, I'd say you've managed to pick the 100 laziest economists in the world.


For reference, the conversation in the article has the Eurozone in mind primarily.


What's interesting is that before covid hit, Germany was in the midst of a successful project to pay off its government debt. They hit about 82% of government debt to GDP in 2010, and went below 60% in 2019. All with low inflation.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_brake_(Germany)


It's important to note that it was done not in the small part thanks to the rising debt levels of other EU countries. In my opinion, you should view EU as one system.


Yes because Germany exports to other countries by lending them money. The export strategy is entirely debt fueled but that won't stop it from being called export champion and it is really a lending champion.


What does this have to do with German government debt?


Why does that matter?


How is that mechanism supposed to work?

Are you somehow assuming that the total amount of government debt is fixed?


So he's getting credit for predicting high inflation in 2020?


More importantly his analysis describes this inflation as the result of structural changes, not cyclical changes. He describes how the managerial class is overpowering the financial class, and what the results are likely to be in the short term (capex boom) and long term (stagflation).


At this point a 20-year capex boom focused on climate change followed by any level of financial pain sounds a lot better than a “financially well-managed” 20 years where we don’t make those investments.


I tend to agree, and if you add to that infrastructure essential to national security like chip manufacturing then sophisticated Republicans can get on board also.


> the managerial class is overpowering the financial class

this is a fantastically succinct summary of his principal thesis, well said


Inb4 global hypermegainflation


Perhaps I’m taking too much of an American centric understanding of his opinion, but the political economy was in full swing during the Pandemic with vaccine subsidies, stimulus, followed by Democrats pushing through a social security increase, student loan forgiveness, and I think we extended unemployment for quite some time, along with rent assistance and eviction moratoriums, and that whole infrastructure deal. They want to do a bunch of other stuff too.

“A third possibility would be voters telling their governments to stop these policies by voting them out of office.”

In America we are about to go through a midterm where the Republicans will take back parts of Congress, effectively shutting down Democrats ability to continue that political economy. Our rhetoric and political climate is also setting up the foundation for another Trump presidency, and he won’t push for jack shit in terms of government programs (if anything, more tax cuts).

It’s a bipolar situation, we are either going to hit the breaks entirely on the political economy with the Republicans, or go full swing with it with Democrats, which I think will leave us in a stagnant place as we shift between both parties over the next 20+ years.

Not sure if this is good or bad.


You are describing the past 20 years in terms of politics. Basically, we've had a sequence of relatively powerless presidents of both parties held hostage by a hopelessly divided senate and house failing to agree on much at all except printing more money to keep things going. Both parties have fueled their respective agendas with debt. That is indeed looking like it will extend into the near future.


I know it’s a lot to remember way back to the 90s, but the Clinton presidency was based on an aggressive program of deficit and debt reduction. It worked extremely well and without major inflation, to the point that the Federal Reserve chairman actually began to publicly fret about government debt levels becoming too low. But then in the 2000s it was completely reversed by a Republican President and away we went. Both Democratic and Republican administrations have accumulated debt since. But the lesson I took from this was (1) the US can reduce deficits if it wants to (and without inflation), and (2) don’t believe political rhetoric about spending or fiscal responsibility unless you see action.

Also makes me wish the Iraq war spending had been put into climate change prevention. Can only imagine how much better off we’d all be today.


Which sort of describes stagnation. Clinton takes it one way, Bush another. It’s net zero with America from what it looks like.




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