Toyota's hybrid tech is and has been the best and most reliable for a very long time.
I think it's a shame that the EV regulations and incentives (at least in America) are not as friendly for traditional hybrids and plug-in hybrids. They have basically zero downsides compared to full ICE or full EV, and would still make a massive dent in emissions.
PHEVs in particular - most people are going under 100 miles a day, so there would be 0 emissions.
Toyota has only recently put into production PHEVs that seem a lot more practical.
For example, the electric-only range for the 2012 Prius PHEV is 15 miles, not enough for many people's daily commute unless you can plug in at both destinations. The 2023 Prius Prime is around 40, which is much better, so maybe you can just plug in at night at home.
It is only the 5th generation Prius that is truly designed around having a higher capacity battery pack, ditto for the recent RAV4 PHEV model. The 4th gen Prius fits in the larger battery pack as compromise, with reduced cargo area and wasted volume.
I would have bought a Prius Prime in 2017, and tried to get the tax credit, but there were several issues. There weren't many available in my area, the standard 2017s had driving and parking assist, while the Prime did not, reduced cargo area with no spare tire, and the price, because even with the tax credit was a bit too high for my liking. Just went with a standard Prius instead, and definitely have not regretted the choice. Today I'd buy a PHEV RAV4 or 5th gen Prius though.
Toyota just has to extend the range of the various plug-in hybrid "Prime" models to 100+ miles on EV, which is totally doable. Right now it's already 25-40 miles. In the US in particular that's going to be a good compromise for a lot of people.
FYI, 40 miles is not plucked out of a hat. Scientists specifically mention that number because it exceeds the daily average driving distance of >90% of people. It is basically the point where any further increases in range becomes unnecessary cost.
That's interesting. Yeah, I know it's probably a more complicated drivetrain, but PHEV to me are the absolute sweet spot for US drivers. Enough to electrify most of the time while enabling longer commutes if needed. Too bad there doesn't seem to be one with 40 mile range under $50k.
A 24 kwH pack (or less) along with a https://www.liquidpiston.com/ engine could provide for an amazing hybrid platform. I think these large battery packs are an obscene waste. Even the 24 kwH pack should be running in 24 electric assist bicycles. Anything over 50 kwH is waste and preventing someone else from going electric.
The average person is extremely concerned about their ability to take that 1,000 mile road trip they’ve never even considered before. This waste also makes cars heavier than they need to be which requires special tyres (more expensive, of course), does more road damage, results in worse braking performance, and more impactful in accidents. And for people who care about driving, the added weight makes the driving experience worse. No driver has ever wanted a heavier car.
Once we collectively get over range anxiety a whole new world is going to open up in EVs.
1,000 mile road trips actually happen, and until recently it was never a problem we had to deal with.
I very much doubt we will ever get over it. We are specifically asked to abandon a feature we enjoyed for a century. We will likely only get over it when there are EVs that simply do not have this sacrifice.
I never said they don’t happen. I said it isn’t average to take one, and the average person is concerned about their ability to do something they’ll never do.
The average person doesn’t need hundreds of miles of range on a single charge assuming the charging infrastructure is there, and it’s getting there.
I’m not sure what your point is. You are in favour of wasting limited non-renewable resources because you personally take road trips?
"Never" is a strong word. People do need it every once in a while. You are taking the idea that people don't drive that much too far.
The point is that the convention BEV is not that desirable, and that people will never accept its limitations. The solution is simply producing another kind of zero emissions vehicle without this problem. That is something we can easily do now. The only opposition at this point seems to be BEV fanatics who have basically closed their minds to this fact in the same way ICE car fanatics closed their minds to EVs a decade ago.
Those Liquid Pistons are probably the most interesting engine design to come a long in a long time, but they're still unproven technology. I haven't kept up on it but I think they've been working on figuring out how to get the engine to survive any significant length of time.
I agree that huge batteries are a waste, but I think there's basically no future in fossil fuel ground transportation. Hybrids are a transitional technology we might use for awhile because we don't have the EV production capacity.
In the long run I think we're better off electrifying our major highways so cars and trucks can charge without stopping. There are several ways to do it, of which induction is the least practical and most expensive.
We should be open to manufacturing liquid fuels or growing them. Esp if they are used sparingly as a backup source. They are energy dense, portable and transferrable.
All machines of meaningful complexity need maintenance if you expect them to last, including EVs, and a fluid change that happens twice a year for most vehicles isn't exactly a huge inconvenience.
IMO getting under your vehicle twice a year is a good thing and more people should be encouraged to do it. Getting eyes on the stuff hidden underneath before it gets bad enough to start breaking is always useful.
> All machines of meaningful complexity need maintenance if you expect them to last, including EVs
This is honestly not true - there is an order of magnitude less parts in an EV drivetrain vs a modern ICE car. You can go a decade between seeing a service center in an EV, largely thanks to regen braking/one pedal driving allowing you to avoid new pads or discs. There is no transmission in virtually all EVs, with drive direct from the motor through a fixed gear etc. The motor's moving parts are effectively friction free - the rotor and stator in an EV never touch, so there is no wear.
I think anyone currently running both an EV and a gas car will have similar experiences; The EV needs tires, cabin air filters and wiper blades from new to the 10 year mark, there are no other regular trips. The only scheduled fluid change on a tesla is a relatively inexspensive 10 year battery coolant swap.
My suspension and brakes get inspected for safety issues every time I get new tires on the EV - I'm fine with not getting under it too.
the biggest opportunity for clutch wear is starting. If you can be easy on the clutch during start, and rev match very well the rest of the shifts, and shift infrequently, (highway miles) they can last a long time. How many miles in 15 years?
> Getting eyes on the stuff hidden underneath before it gets bad enough to start breaking is always useful.
For people like myself, looking at the underside of a car is worthless. I wouldn't even begin to be able to recognize something needs attention until it's very obviously broken. And even then, I might not know.
If you're looking at it a few times a year even if you don't know what you're looking at after a few times any substantial changes should be notable. On top of that I'd imagine most people who do their own oil changes are going to lean in the direction of mechanically inclined or at least willing to learn things.
If you're paying someone else to do it, presumably they're a set of eyes that's a bit more experienced with cars and can more confidently identify the sorts of things one could see from the perspective of an oil change.
They often have no spare tire to fit the battery. Quite a few don't have battery thermal management, so the packs will degrade much more quickly. It seems like they have all the downsides.
New Toyota Corollas don't have spare tires. They're not an outlier. Are there available (new) EVs other than the Nissan Leaf that doesn't have active thermal management?
This is a valid concern. My Tesla has had zero maintenance in the 50,000 km since I bought it. Even as a former gearhead, I love not thinking about it.
PHEV sounds like best of both world on paper but actually worst of both worlds in reality. You are hauling a massive dead weight. Very little useful space inside. Most of them don't make past 10yrs due to the cost of complex system and battery replacement.
2022 Prius Prime gets better mpg than 2022 Prius, not worse.
And that doesn't count how much better things get if you fully charge the electric 25-mile range battery and measure the mpge.
Additionally, I offer into evidence what happens if you rent a Prius Prime and drive up to the valet at the hotel of your choice. Answer: they won't come and help you. Reason: they'll think you're an Uber driver. Upshot: the idea that Uber drivers could or would eat the cost of worse gas mileage due to dead weight is fatuous.
Toyota does a 10 year manufacturer warranty; the availability and price of used ones older than 10 years (I think they're called Prius Plug-in) should tell you that Toyota has a handle on the complexity of the system they built.
Toyota. Oh what a feeling.
Also, anyone who has one: hit me up if you're thinking about getting rid of one of these pieces of dead weight.
Is the likelyhood of my vehicle, be it ICE, Hybrid, or EV catching fire higher or lower than me getting struck by lightning, or getting eaten by a shark/bear/goat?
I think it's a shame that the EV regulations and incentives (at least in America) are not as friendly for traditional hybrids and plug-in hybrids. They have basically zero downsides compared to full ICE or full EV, and would still make a massive dent in emissions.
PHEVs in particular - most people are going under 100 miles a day, so there would be 0 emissions.