I agree that the way I discussed the issue was wrong. I stand by my initial point that Rome was a dark age. I don't have "no idea" what I'm discussing. I agree that Rome is worth understanding, and I think the early humanist "we are far from the ancients" mindset that still exists today (for some odd reason) has gotten in the way of that. People seem to get lost in Rome's grandiose public works and lose sight of Rome's numerous faults. I think value judgments are warranted being that they are already being made. Wanting to go "back" to the ways Rome as many seem to desire to do (in some form) is clearly a value judgment as well as a severe error. Rome and it's culture simply did not value the natural world or abstract thought. That is perhaps what lead to the aimless conquest which in turn caused an almost global pause in scientific inquiry. Bedsides the issue with the layman understanding of Rome is also the perhaps more concerning academic view of it starting with Burckhardt and his understanding of the renaissance which is based on the Great Rome myth. So I think it is all warranted. Perhaps I should be embarrassed but so should the layman and the academics for constructing this "veil of ignorance" surrounding Rome and its failures.