>> "No one, and no religion, owns the moon, and, were the beliefs of the world's multitude of religions considered, it’s quite likely that no missions would ever be approved," Chafer added. "Simply, we do not and never have let religious beliefs dictate humanity’s space efforts — there is not and should not be a religious test."
>we do not and never have let religious beliefs dictate humanity’s space efforts
luxury space tourists sending them a check to turn the moon into their personal graveyard, polluting the surface with organic material which seems scientifically disastrous dictates the efforts just fine.
If the only thing that stands between turning the moon into the next dumping ground is the traditions of the Navajo people they might be worth listening to.
Not sure why people are trying to create a wedge between science and religion here. The Navajo and scientists have more in common on the question of stewardship of the moon than SpaceBurials Incorporated. Same goes for stewardship of the earrh btw.
All humans have the same right to the moon. Some are just better at asserting those rights. Cry all you want but if someone wants to pay to have their grave dug on the lunar surface, you have no right to stop them.
Allowing graves on the moon will affect the market for cemetery services in the United States, so Congress has jurisdiction under the interstate commerce clause.
Actually, the OST would interact with the use of the moon dirt and the lack of clear res nullia would greatly complicate burial. Space law is the worst.
You're a puerile dolt. Who is to say we have any rights with regards to the moon? Your foolish attitude is grotesque, you'd just like the biggest and least risk-averse kid do whatever they'd want to do in the sandbox? This just in, they just took a shit in the school's sandbox, have fun rolling around in shit! We'll see who's crying then.
We should treat & act towards the Earth & Moon with great respect and great caution, we were given the right to live by God or the Earth & the Moon. Its time we take a step back and learn we live *with* the land and *because* of the land...I could go on and on but I'd be happily surprised if you take the time to find gratitude for the moon.
Get mad all you want, it won't change the fact that the extremely wealthy are equivalent to old-world gods. They have the power of life and death, and they rule the heavens and the earth. They will do whatever they want, wherever they want, and nothing you can do will change that. If they want to turn the moon into their private playpen / burial ground, they can do that and even if you expend your life trying to stop it it's questionable they will even notice.
Perhaps your corporeal flesh is a biohazard to be incenerated on your death but my God considers our bodies sacred and tells us to return to the planet to sustain life. I don't believe life ends at earth.
The idea that we must "leave no trace" on the moon or any other heavenly body is idiotic and impossible. It stems from scientist looking to protect their own interests. We will live on the moon, and mars, and many other planets some day. These were all gifts given to us by the Almighty.
They aren't taking human remains up there for scientific purposes, it's not any-ashes-will-do, they're taking specific human remains up there because that's what either the dead person asked for or some alive person wants to do with them, and more precisely because they are being paid to.
Nothing's gonna be learned here, it's a vanity project, it's entirely just the idea that "we should do something special" with dead people beyond what is strictly necessary from a public health stand point.
None of that supports your prior assertion that it's "absolutely" a religious effort though. Even if it's pure vanity and 100% wasteful, why should any Earthly religion have an overruling say about it?
"Some post death action to a body beyond what is strictly necessary from a public health standpoint" is not the definition of religious effort though. It has nothing inherent to do with worship, gods, faith, afterlife, or the supernatural anymore than the "belief" if you pay for shipment of something it'll probably make it that even if you're not around to see it and that sounds fun. After all, not everything people do beyond the bare necessities of public health is about religion.
I would have appreciated it if the article could have elaborated a bit more on why the Navajo Nation considers this a form of desecration, beyond the vague statement about the moon being a sacred place for them.
At face value this seems both completely absurd and arbitrary, so I can't help but wonder if there is some context I'm missing here, because otherwise it just seems like the leadership of the Navajo Nation is trying to deliberately hurt their own credibility.
If they make objections in the future about desecration of sacred land, it will be easier to argue their objections are frivolous by using this as an example going forward. An unfortunate outcome for them.
While I know nothing of the Navajo, the moon and the sun are revered by many people. They are literally seen as gods by some religions. I have no trouble believing that they see this as desecration without having to actually delve into their beliefs. But yea, would be interesting to know what it is to them.
There are many obstacles to living on the moon, but I don't think their belief will bar us from burying people there. Like other religions, believers will have to disconnect their god from the physical moon body.
It's a matter of taste and an offense to nature. Would you like it if a cryopreserved embalmed 10 foot tall pile of human feces was permanently enshrined atop Everest or on a buoy at the mouth of the Amazon river? If you felt any revulsion or disgust at the idea, that's probably the way the felt at the idea of the relatively untouched 'nature' of the moon beginning to be used as a novelty landfill/dump for rich people to stow their trash (or important human remains).
but every animal that lives in the amazon shits in it? whats so bad about human shit. its just acid washed organic matter.
what point are you making? if you acknowledge its only a matter of taste, then who cares about navajo tastes? especially when the taste is wrong. the moon isn't sacred.
The parent asked why they cared, I'm not making an argument I'm answering the question.
My answer is that it's distasteful to them and their belief system / worldview. I happen to share the same distaste, though not on any religious grounds.
Who cares about Navajo tastes? Presumably other people who agree with them and would support a ban on vanity projects on the moon or who find it distasteful, like myself.
Paraphrasing from the article, shortened again, placing human remains and other things could be perceived as discards, is tantamount to desecration.
In response, the President of the Navajo Nation, Buu Nygren, has filed a formal objection with NASA and the U.S. Department of Transportation over what he calls an act of desecration. "It is crucial to emphasize that the moon holds a sacred position in many Indigenous cultures, including ours," Nygren wrote in a letter dated Dec. 21. *"The act of depositing human remains and other materials, which could be perceived as discards in any other location, on the moon is tantamount to desecration of this sacred space."*
It seems like human remains can get news attention, and their objection lies more with other aspects--if I were pressed to guess, against commercial use of space.
This article is about the NASA response, and links to an earlier article [1] about the complaint
According to Nygren, this has been an ongoing concern that "echoes back to the late 1990s, when the National Aeronautics and Space Administration sent the Lunar Prospector, carrying the remains of [geologist] Eugene Shoemaker, to the moon. At the time, Navajo Nation President Albert Hale voiced our objections regarding this action. In response, NASA issued a formal apology and promised consultation with tribes before authorizing further missions carrying human remains to the moon."
and
Nygren reminded parties that NASA had previously committed to notify the Navajo Nation regarding memorial flights and that the Biden administration promised to consult on tribal concerns of this nature, as outlined [2] in the Memorandum on Tribal Consultation and Strengthening Nation-to-Nation Relationships on Jan. 26, 2021.
"This memorandum reinforced the commitment to Executive Order 13175 of November 6, 2000," Nygren explained. "Additionally, the Memorandum of Understanding Regarding Interagency Coordination and Collaboration for the Protection of Indigenous Sacred Sites, which you and several other members of the Administration signed in November 2021, further underscores the requirement for such consultation."
It might be an interesting route people attempt to block some uses on religious, broadly ethic-aesthetic, grounds. Seems like a long battle, I wonder what political angle will side with, and use / empower the argument.
Even though no religion owns the moon, there are laws in many places about the disposal of human remains, even on public lands, so I don't see why there couldn't be similar international regulations about the disposal of human remains on the moon.
Indeed, I should think that apart from any religious objections, there should be deep concern from a purely scientific standpoint. This is, right now, a pristine space. We should not be leaving a bunch of organic material there for purely commercial reasons.
And there are also public lands where human remains may be disposed. I think the premise that some find controversial is that the Navajo Nation expects unilateral veto power over the entire moon, on grounds of personal belief.
Regarding the scientific concern, NASA and space agencies DO have controls in place to limit potential biocontamination.
There is essentially no carbon on the moon right now, which will be required for eventual greenhouses. Any organic material deposited on the moon may be, pragmaticaly speaking, too valuable to not break down and add to the carbon cycle. I suspect many social norms taken for granted on earth will be forced to adapt by the environment in space.
> so I don't see why there couldn't be similar international regulations about the disposal of human remains on the moon.
Because there's not really a central enforcement mechanism like there is for regular laws?
I mean, that's a problem for all international agreements, but it seems like it would be relevant here as well. It would require a tremendous amount of political capital and buy-in from every country capable of making a vehicle that can travel to the moon. And spending that political capital for something like this seems like pretty low ROI
Not religious myself, but I'd be minded to respect the reasonable wishes of those who are. There's not really much point in putting human samples on the moon (unless I've missed something), so that act itself is quasi-religious.
I agree on respecting reasonable wishes. But the challenge is over what is reasonable.
This request doesn’t seem reasonable to me. And seems like a waste of governance to spend resources evaluating these requests to stop putting human samples on the moon.
Of course, if a group is offended by the activity I like that they earnestly post their letter noting concern and requesting consideration. It will just be bad, I think, if a single letter from a single group that has just seen a thing would stop some valuable activity. Value as judged by the resources put into funding such a mission, somebody thinks it is worthwhile.
Let me drop my feces over your lawn. That's just biodegradable stuff, it will disappear. Completely reasonable.
And this is not a "group of people", it's a nation. Just as USA is a nation.
And while you're at it, just burn a print of the Quran. After all, that's just some paper and it will bring valuable heat. And the "group of Muslims" will certainly be happy to help.
No, if we allowed religion to dictate like this we’d be in a horrible place. This is insanity and fortunately the founders of the US saw this and took steps to restrain the power of religion and give us the freedom of expression.
These group of Muslims would also do a lot more if they had unlimited say
I’m imagining you blamed the Charlie hebdo staff for being murdered?
Would you support Scientologists getting South Park banned? It was very insulting to their religion and core beliefs, right?
Why do you want to respect any wishes of people who believe in imaginary things? That seems odd. I'd suggest your save your respect for those who are rational.
> Why do you want to respect any wishes of people who believe in imaginary things?
I respect human beings regardless of their beliefs. Having "right thought" be the basis upon which you dole out respect doesn't sound particularly rational to me.
I'd actually argue that refusing to respect people due to differing beliefs is the root cause of much of the suffering we so often attribute to "a belief in the imaginary."
There is such a thing as a test of sincere religious belief, and it requires, for one thing, an established religion. There is no established religion that believes in lunar burial. You can't just make some shit up and say "that's my religion." If you could, then everyone would be a part of the church of never paying taxes.
No religious organization, registered and classified as such, pays taxes. You can read more about the methods of classification here[0]. Note that factors like " a distinct religious history, a formal code of doctrine, regular services, a regular congregation" are considered.
You, emtrw, cannot claim that you belong to a religion of one that you just made up right now, apply for tax exempt status and expect it to work because "religion." That isn't going to fly. And just because your church is exempt from taxes, you are not.
Here is a Reddit thread explaining this further[1].
And to put this into context relative to the thread, you cannot claim that your religion says burial on the moon is your highest honor and expect it to be taken seriously, when no one is taking the religion older than Christianity seriously, and it's obvious your religion doesn't really exist. The real legal world doesn't operate under video game logic where you just need a cheat code to hack the system.
Reminded me of that old joke:
About 1966 or so, a NASA team doing work for the Apollo moon mission took the astronauts near Tuba City where the terrain of the Navajo Reservation looks very much like the Lunar surface. With all the trucks and large vehicles there were two large figures that were dressed in full Lunar spacesuits.
Near by a Navajo sheep herder and his son where watching the strange creatures walk about, occasionally being tended by personnel. The two Navajo people were noticed and approached by the NASA personnel. Since the man did not know English, his son asked for him what the strange creatures were and the NASA people told them that they are just men that are getting ready to go to the moon. The man became very excited and asked if he could send a message to the moon with the astronauts.
The NASA personnel thought this was a great idea so they rustled up a tape recorder. After the man gave them his message they asked his son to translate. His son would not.
Later, they tried a few more people on the reservation to translate, and every person they asked would chuckle and then refuse to translate. Finally, with cash in hand someone translated the message: "Watch out for these guys, they come to take your land."
We should submit to %0.002 of the world's population magical thinking, stop all moon base projects since people may die on the moon and "desecrate" it!
Unbelievable harm has been done to these people’s ancestors and that harm has lingering impact today. More must be done to make up for it, but this seems like a form of blackmail, it seems to me to be about attention and getting someone to throw them some money rather than actual improvement. Happy to be corrected.
I wouldn’t go as far as saying it’s blackmail. They voiced their concerns peacefully, and requested a review. It will likely be ignored, as it deserves to be.
People who have lived and died in a place have a clear claim to be interred there. So far no one has lived or died on the moon, the only claim anyone has to this ritual is that they can afford the cost of it. It's reasonable to deny that claim imo.
How do you consider that obvious? It's not like people lived there ancestrally. What if I consider you living in your house as desecration? Would I be justified in throwing you out? It's obvious to me these claims of desecration are spurious.
It’s the friggin moon. I’m amazed people are taking this request seriously. You don’t get to just look up and say “that’s sacred” and expect the rest of us to go along with your fantasy. Because there’s way too many other fantasies with way more money behind them that will smother you.
This particular thread is odd since it also shows up as a 2 day old discussion if you search for it, but navigating to it takes you here, a 1 hour old thread. @dang, this thread seems like it time travelled, with 2 day old comments showing up as new.
I respect the Navajo beliefs but I'm thinking: some day the moon may be colonized. Colonists will die. So what is what they would propose so they wouldn't object? To ship the corpses back to Earth? As I said, it's a belief worthy of respect but I don't think it's going to be future-proof.
It seems that any private enterprise can just launch any type of item(s) to the moon without any rules or oversight what so ever?!! How TF did we even get there? And how can we get rules and policing in place really really fast?
The article mentions advertising as one example - it would have to be a very large sign to be visible down here, but there are people that stupid, and there are corporations that rich. The thought alone is beyond disgusting to me, and I don't think I'm overly sensitive in that specific regard.
As an European it did not escape my attention that these enterprises are American. These private enterprises from one specific country are allowed by that one specific country to desecrate (and that is the proper word) something of immense importance to almost all the world. I guess there's a word for that, and I guess it's Hubris. But then there are many more words, none positive in any way.
This should never have started. It has to stop. Immediately. But how?
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Also, after reading the comments, it seems that the concept "sacred" is not really something that my fellow commenters here, uhm... internalize (let alone, understand). Let's just say that if a spokesperson for an Indigenous Nation mentions that something is "sacred" to them, it means that that something is far more important to them than your morning coffee, or the distictions between Vi/Emacs, SPA/MPA, PHP/Rust. Which is something like "extremely important" times infinity.
Also, if a spokesperson for an Indigenous Nation says something like that, it will be beyond rude to suggest that he does not state the facts (or that he is somehow lying or pretending something).
This is regardless if you are religious, atheist, or whatever. Just FYI.
I had a similar reaction to your first half. As another concrete example, do we no longer avoid contaminating extraterrestrial objects with microbes as we did during the Apollo era?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_protection
From the article:
Category II: Any mission to locations of significant interest for chemical evolution and the origin of life, but only a remote chance that spacecraft-borne contamination could compromise investigations. Examples include the Moon, Venus, and comets. Requires simple documentation only, primarily to outline intended or potential impact targets, and an end of mission report of any inadvertent impact site if such occurred.[16]
My understanding is that they do need to follow the treaty requirements if they launch from a country that has signed it or, maybe, are incorporated in such a country.
