One obvious thing missing from any of those lists: Visa and Mastercard alternatives. This is the protection money that is never brought up by the US officials when they say that America was paying for our security.
And within those countries in only a handful of banks. We've been here before, but as of right now, I'd give it a better chance than I'd have given just four months ago.
I am unfamiliar with Wero. Can you explain why it is an engineering fiasco?
Side note: Looking at their job listings I don't see any engineering positions (with the exception of a security engineer which is a grey area in a bank IMO), only managers and business roles.
what ever "money extraction business" means - wero is a real thing people (me included) are already using and developed jointly by many european banks.
Old Dutch banks and their Belgian suckers, mostly. You can see a list on their website.
I am not deep into this, but I heard multiple times that the choice of the pan-european payment system was largely political and technnically suboptimal. Old Europe pushed for the aging iDEAL against a much more advanced Blink, so Eastern European banks led by Poland left the consortium.
In the end, iDEAL rebranded as Wero was dead on arrival because a successful system needs to be supported by everyone.
I have no idea what you are talking about. I have been using Wero for a while in France and it works just fine and is completely free.
It's basically instant bank transfer without any fee or limitation on how many you can do.
The big European countries adopt it, so if Poland will adopt it or not won't matter in the short term, in the long term merchants will accept it as they do it with Alipay and other more obscure stuff
Wero is a land grab by the banks who fumbled building a PayPal alternative for 20 years, now desperately trying to stop the digital Euro.
Sure I'd rather use Wero than PayPal -if it was decent- and building it on top of SEPA instant transactions is neat. But the lack of buyers protection is a deal breaker for me!
And quite frankly I'd rather use a digital Euro governed by the ECB than some rent seeking hobby project by a bunch of private banks. Especially because they will inevitably enshittify it with ads and hostile BNPL like PayPal.
It seems like Taler has been coming along great and the biggest things it’s missing are more interest and adoption. There has been some first ‘real-world’ use recently, but it’s still far from becoming widespread, which would be a dream come true.
The big European countries still have their National Systems that work very well.
If the US would nuke Visa/MC in Germany, payments inside Germany would still work very well via Girocard (except for some people that bank with cheapskate neobanks)
In Belgium, Maestro card was halted and my bank switched to MasterCard. Then I paid on some USA website and they managed to pull money from my account based on only the card number, without using the bank website's chip+pin. I was flabberghasted on how we silently managed to get such a huge setback in both security and national independence. I stopped payments using non-EU entities.
France has the CB network for example which I believe still dominates most credit card transactions although it's declining as more and more cards are not co-branded anymore.
Eh, as an American I have to pay Visa/Mastercard fees too.
Why do European drug firms charge so much more for their drugs in the US than in Europe? That is an actual difference between what it is like to be in a consumer in US vs Europe. Even Bernie Sanders thinks it is a problem: https://www.npr.org/2024/09/24/nx-s1-5123689/novo-nordisk-ce...
Many European countries have a single payer system when it comes to the medical system. That gives them a big leverage in negotiations for drug pricing.
You’re twisting words at this point. Visa and Mastercard are a duopoly and neither of them are afraid to use their power to cut off money flows towards entities they disapprove of. It’s an intrinsic risk and a big issue for sovereignty. The situation is very different for pharmaceuticals, a lot of which are American. The short story is, the American healthcare system is broken and very expensive for the results it provides. The solution is to reform your health system. Moaning won’t solve anything because even if you replaced all those evil European companies with American alternatives, it won’t bring prices down because the system still encourages price gouging.
You’d have a point if you had examples of European pharma companies cutting off supply to American entities for political reasons. You don’t, so you don’t have a point.
AFAIK, Medicare in the USA is forbidden by law from using its big market to drive a hard bargain like most national health services can (Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement, and Modernization Act of 2003). So its like employers paying workers less in jurisdictions where they can't unionize and strike.
They correctly point out that useless parasites like the Pharmacy Benefit Managers that I also mentioned to you, are a quite big part of your drug price problem. Yet you seem to refuse to acknowledge it
The system is packed with opaque middlemen such as pharmacy benefit managers, many of which are making big rents
Certainly the US healthcare system needs reform. But I believe a big reason why we have paid such high drug prices for so long is because congresspeople in the US believed that it was good for us to subsidize drug innovation for the entire world. That era is over. Like I said, you Europeans had a good thing going, but you just couldn't let well enough alone.
If you really believe that Congressmen in the US thought they were subsidizing foreign nations while their own citizens suffer out of their goodness of their hearts, and not because some Lobbyists donated huge sums to their campaigns and "convinced" them in some meetings, Boy I do have a Bridge to sell you.
American Politicians are really famous worldwide for being selfless, defending other nations interests to the detriment of their own nation
Especially the Republican ones, which have blocked and still trying to block all efforts to bring drug prices down by negotiation.
They are known for being very caring people. Especially for the poor and disadvantaged
The lobbyists probably said something like "it is good for drug companies to make profits so they can innovate new drugs for global benefit".
Same way the defense companies probably said something like "it is good to deter Russia so that Europe can remain free and democratic".
Hilarious, isn't it?
Anyways shouldn't you get back to work so you can afford all the new weapons you're going to have to buy?
"American Politicians are really famous worldwide for being selfless, defending other nations interests to the detriment of their own nation." Well yes, we did that for you guys for 80 years after WW2, a very peaceful and prosperous period for Europe by historical standards. We got nothing but hate and laughter for it. Now we're done.
* Well yes, we did that for you guys for 80 years after WW2, a very peaceful and prosperous period for Europe by historical standards. We got nothing but hate and laughter for it
We got nothing but hate and laughter for it*
You're either very stupid believing that the American Engagement in Europe was just charity or just a very good troll.
I guess Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran (pre-Mullahs) and other countries that were gifted with democracy were also other selfless endeavours by the Americans.
"You're either very stupid believing that the American Engagement in Europe was just charity or just a very good troll."
Europeans always imply that NATO is some sort of vast American conspiracy. But they are hardly ever able to give compelling examples of American benefit. The US benefit from NATO always remains a sort of esoteric wisdom which is mysteriously beyond the grasp of the average American. I suppose if we were more educated on European geography trivia, like you guys, that might help us understand why the US needs NATO so badly.
"Vietnam"
Yes, that was seen as analogous to another very recent war in Korea. If it wasn't for us, the state known as "North Korea" would cover the entire peninsula.
"Iraq"
One of the worst dictators in history, that Saddam Hussein. Europeans laughed at us for our opposition to him. It's why we now have little interest in opposing Putin, who is a herbivore by comparison.
"Afghanistan"
Depending on who you ask, we are either imperialists for displacing the Taliban, or complicit for allowing them to displace us right back. Typical double-bind.
"Iran"
You mean the country which is at this very moment crying out for American intervention, asking the Americans to protect protesters? It's fascinating to me how certain Europeans can simultaneously beg the US for protection, and also assume that the US must be up to no good in other countries where the US gets begged for protection.
Hopefully you can see why I support Massie's bill to withdraw the US from NATO at this point. I'm tired of it all. I want a Swiss foreign policy for the US. Do you also support Massie's bill? Maybe that's something we can agree on.
It seems that you have great difficulties with reading comprehension. I was mentioning Iran (Pre-Mullahs) where the UK and US overthrew a democratically elected president because of Oil. Leading to the current theocratic and oppressive government.
Also your reasons to invade Iraq were made up Lies about Weapons of Mass destruction, and the US propped up the Taliban against the Soviets in the first place.
Both were quite liberal states compared to today, after they were blessed with US intervention
Classic double bind. If we support the Taliban, we are evil for "propping it up". If we oppose it, we are evil for "destabilizing it". The implication is that everything would magically be fine and dandy if it weren't for the US. Of course, your critique does not engage much with the actual reasoning or decision-making process of the US in Afghanistan (or Iraq for that matter). But caricaturing the US as an evil empire was the point, after all.
I think your narratives are oversimplified or inaccurate, but ultimately it doesn't matter.
The important point is: Since US intervention is so bad, according to you, can you understand why I want to withdraw from NATO? Can we at least agree on that? Don't you want to save your continent from the evil US intervention such as all the billions we've sent as support to Ukraine?
Why do you think we propped them up against the Soviets? Oh yeah, it was an effort to bring down the Soviet Union so Germany could be reunified, hermanzegerman. Arguably, a rather successful effort. And a huge mistake in retrospect. Germany should've stayed divided. Berlin Wall should've stayed in place. Not our problem. We unified Germany and got 9/11 as thanks.
See why I want out of NATO? The Swiss stay perfectly neutral, they never had a 9/11, everyone loves them. No one blames them for the situation in Ukraine (they contribute little) or anything else. That's what the US was like pre-WW1 with regard to Europe. I want to go back.
> Well yes, we did that for you guys for 80 years after WW2, a very peaceful and prosperous period for Europe by historical standards. We got nothing but hate and laughter for it We got nothing but hate and laughter for it.
Have you thanked the French for getting involved in US wars?
And when you say "we", does that include yourself?
Why would I personally thank Euros for "destabilizing the Middle East" when they demonize the US for "destabilizing the Middle East"? That doesn't make any sense. You know the Libya operation was Europe-initiated right? You gonna personally thank the US for going along with it? Lead the way amigo.
>And when you say "we", does that include yourself?
Yes, in the sense that me and my ancestors have been paying taxes to support a military which was supposed to be able to win against the USSR. That money should have stayed in the United States for peaceful purposes. Euros should've defended themselves. If the USSR took over the entire continent that's not our problem. We have to focus on our own problems instead of playing world police.
You can't both demonize the US for its every foreign policy move, and also demand the US protect you. That makes zero sense. You can't both trash the US for its every supposed problem, and also demand that the US pay more attention to Europe's problems. That also makes zero sense. There's nothing coherent in the European ideology beyond just "America Bad". Fine, we'll take our toys and go home. I sure hope it makes you happy.
No, that article has one paragraph which frets that if Medicare drives down drug prices in the USA, pharma companies might cut R&D spending, and might get less new drugs (note the conditional and hypothetical). A colleague in biomedical research says that its just a common misconception that R&D costs drive drug prices eg. https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj-2022-071710
While Master Card and a Visa there is a EU regulation limiting the fees, health insurance is mainly national level. So you could ask the question why is Ozempic cheap in Australia? But I can't answer your question.
The EU had such a good deal with the US. But they couldn't resist making fun of us. They made fun of us for our military spending while we deterred Russia. They made fun of us for our health spending while we subsidized their drug development costs. They made fun of our long work hours, while demanding Ukraine contributions based on our high GDP (which is high in part because we work long hours). They talk so much about America's soft power in Europe, without realizing that Europe's soft power in America is practically all gone at this point.
See this illustrates my point. The "soft power" talking point I sometimes see from Europeans is a complete lie. The idea is that giving Europe relatively favorable terms will cause Europe to regard the US well is a fabrication. In reality, giving Europe favorable terms just causes Europeans to view Americans as suckers.
You are deluded. Nobody "gave Europe a sweet deal". Those are the rules of the land. Companies are free to reject them, in which case they just cannot do business here. We did not force them to come. The fact that they are still obviously making tons of money in the EU should tell you how you are being taken advantage of.
Right. It’s not really protection money. It’s just a duopoly under the control of a rogue foreign power that control any entity’s access to customer’s payments. So even if it’s not protection money, the risk of blackmail is high. It is a strategic weakness.
Protection Money is as much nonsense as "Europeans are ripping off Americans in Trade". Because they always conveniently leave out services, which would make the Balance between the US/EU even
As the other guy said you're completely deluded. Nobody "gave" us cheaper credit card fees from MasterCard or Visa. They were the result of a regulatory process.
MasterCard or Visa also aren't operating as a charity in Europe.
Before the capping of fees was introduced, their acceptance was shit at most businesses, and most bank consumers also didn't have one, as opposed to cards of the national scheme which had lower fees both for customers and merchants
So initially MasterCard/Visa profits in Europe are "protection money".
Then it comes out that MasterCard/Visa fees in Europe are actually far lower than in the US.
Now the Europeans are laughing at the Americans for being suckers.
This interaction basically sums up the entire EU/US relationship and the absurdity of Europe's rhetoric around it. Copy/paste this template, change a few words, and it applies pretty much everywhere.
We don't laugh at Americans for being suckers, we feel sorry for them that they have to live with all this nonsense, and their current horrible administration.
And we also look with horror because most of the bullshit in the US is coming to Europe with a 20 year delay
OK so can we at least agree that the US needs to withdraw from NATO in order to focus on our own domestic issues, and so Russia will no longer interfere in our elections?
I need to worry about secret police in my state murdering randomly people. I have no time to think of Europe. Hence it is best to withdraw from NATO. Agreed?
> Sweden: 47% had a favorable opinion of the US.; Germany: 49%; France: 46%; The Netherlands: 48%
And this was after the US committed over $120 billion in aid (all weapons and cash) to Ukraine, and, for some reason, allowed Sweden to join NATO--the same Sweden that pledged neutrality when Finland was invaded by the Soviets, who stole the Karelian Isthmus and other bits of its territory, and similarly did nothing when Norway and Denmark were invaded and occupied by Nazi Germany.
Yes, there is no point in trying to make Europeans happy. They are impossible to please. You can see our favorability in Europe was barely net positive then.
By May of last year (before the Greenland drama--I'm against that of course), more Europeans liked China better than the US. Maybe we should start shipping materials for weapons to Russia, like China does, to see if that improves our popularity with Europe.
"Soft power" is an absurd talking point. Doing nice things for Europe has brought us nothing but anger and contempt. Just scroll through this thread, there's plenty of proof. They are a very entitled and condescending people.
In 2021 he tried an autogolpe and by the time this survey was done in 2024, he was not in prison for treason but instead again running for president as nominee of one of only two major parties. What sort of opinion should one have of such a country?
> allowed Sweden to join NATO
What sort of absurd argument is this? Now that Sweden changed their mind and want to enter treaty obligations to help defend e.g. the Baltics, we should refuse them?
Also, I can't begin to comprehend how Sweden would militarily defend Finland, who entered WW2 as an ally of Nazi Germany after being invaded by USSR, and simultaneously fight against Nazi Germany.
You are paying more for everything because your country is extremely anti social, people alone have no leverage to negotiate prices with visa, pharmaceutics and so on.
Trump is only pushing that « free for all » policy even more, I wouldn’t expect to see things improve for you.
Instead of fixing your country and making the rich accountable, you’re being manipulated to look elsewhere.
Anyway, I believe that the eu cutting ties with the USA is the best thing that could happen to us and I’m glad you’re satisfied. We should have spent much more on military and put an end to the USA military supremacy across the world a long time ago.
Yes, I am very happy to see Europe develop its own military-industrial complex. That way, whenever something bad happens in the world, you will be "complicit" if you sit by, and "imperialist" if you take action. It's a lot of fun!
Besides the military-industrial complex, I am very happy to see Europe develop its own digital systems. That way we won't be totally dependent on Google, Microsoft, AWS, OpenAI, Apple, Visa, Mastercard etc.
Come on, it’s already been that way for more than a century. Old imperial powers cannot do a thing or its opposite without endless recriminations. We’re used to it.
For the past few decades I've only seen the US constantly criticized as either "complicit" or "imperialist". We tried to take responsibility for everything and it got us nothing but hate. Hopefully it will be Europe's turn soon.
If you're trying to imply that I have a childlike understanding... in that case, I appreciate you reinforcing the points I've made in this thread, namely (a) Europeans are condescending jerks, and (b) Europeans will airily claim "Americans are ignorant" but rarely have much interesting evidence to back up their claims.
These two comments you made above and the fact that you care so much about what a not very well-defined mass of people thinks about you and blames you of that you mistake it for soft power are the perfect illustration of my point.
So, more condescension with no supporting evidence? Gotcha.
Like the US benefit from NATO, "soft power" always remains a sort of esoteric wisdom which is mysteriously beyond the grasp of the average American. I've spent tens or even hundreds of hours arguing online with Europeans. They've never given a compelling explanation of how US "soft power" is supposed to work in a democratic country when the majority of the population dislikes the US. They just stick their nose in the air and say "too bad you're an ignorant American, if you were European like us, you would understand". Europeans think Americans are suckers, in other words.
It's very ironic to me that Europeans say that Americans are purely self-interested, but when it comes to actually convincing to us, they are barely ever able to muster any sort of compelling appeal to our self-interest. (They don't just want us to defend them; they also want us to make the argument that it is in our national interest to defend them! It's rather astonishing.) At the end of the day, "Americans only care about their self-interest" is just another "America Bad" rhetorical point, as is proven by the actions of Europeans.
If you want us to be benevolent to you, give us credit for being a benevolent actor in your region. If you truly believe we are self-interested, appeal effectively to our self-interest, and respect our decision if we conclude that your appeal is unpersuasive or the juice isn't worth the squeeze. But don't constantly talk about how we are evil and self-interested, and then de facto expect us to help you on the basis of altruism. That's what you've been doing for years now. At this point we are burnt out. "The beatings will continue until morale improves."
Why do you think spending time to argue with someone like you is in my self interest? The answer may shine some light on your questions.
Take a step back to reflect on what you're writing here, done earnestly it may resolve your frustrations. It's easy to not notice the world revolving around you and just take it for granted until it's not the case anymore.
You aren't arguing with me in the sense of engaging with what I'm saying. You're just being pompous. Pretty typical for Europeans.
"Don't be an obnoxious asshole to someone if you need their help" is just basic etiquette. Europeans seem constitutionally unable to grasp this point. Maybe it will help if you follow your own advice, and reflect on it for a bit.
(If you don't need our help, continue being a jerk of course. It will help me achieve my goal of getting the US to withdraw from NATO.)
I don't want the world to revolve around me. I'm completely tired of that. I want to be Switzerland. We stayed out of Europe's problems pre-WW1 and we can do it again just fine.
I probably won't reply to your further in this thread, because I expect any further comments from you will be additional fact-free condescension. (If you want me to reply I suggest you start by apologizing.)
It goes to show how pointless it is to chase 'soft power' by appealing to global public opinion. Even in democratic countries, most leaders have sub-50% approval. So even if the US was run by a politician chosen by a global electorate, we would most likely still be hated.
And of course good intentions are no guarantee of good results, e.g. I believe Bush had good intentions with Iraq, he was just incompetent.
China is very smart to simply not get involved in much of anything. As soon as you do something, it gives people the opportunity to blame you, if even a single person thinks the result is even a little bit less than perfect.
There are regulations. Both Visa and Mastercard were happy with those and made quite a lot of money from their business in the EU. They absorbed and merged with local alternatives and competitors. It’s a bit rich to complain after the game has been going on for a while that the rules are as they are: they’ve always been that way and if they were not happy, they could just have ignored the European markets. Now, if your point is that you’re being shafted, then congratulations: realising is the first step towards solving. Now, vote for a government that will actually regulate the sector in the people’s favour, not the big corps. We cannot help you for that.
I'm not complaining about Visa or Mastercard fees in the US.
I am pointing out the absurdity of the original European claim that such fees are "protection money" to the US, when the EU is getting a sweetheart deal relative to the US. It's typical disingenuous European rhetoric.
I know it's difficult for you to comprehend, but Governments are supposed to act in the interest of the general population of their country, not for companies and the 1%.
And that includes making sure that markets are working and regulating (near) monopolies
And the fees you pay go, in part, to fund the American War machine that is now threatening Europe. As a European, I don't want to fund your war machine.
You know that nearly nobody in the US pays the sticker price of Drugs?
They have to put an absurd sticker price on the drugs so that the "Pharmacy Benefit Manager" (an useless middlemen that only exists in US Healthcare) can "negotiate" a "discount" on behalf of your insurance (aka the real price), for which he takes a cut based on how big the "discount" is
