My comment here will sound emotionally tone deaf and heartlessly opportunistic. Let there be no mistake I consider these operations that kill innocent Pakistanis despicable and illegal.
At the same time I wish the political class that shaped the history of Pakistan take a tough and straight look at themselves and the role their decisions (in particular unfettered encouragement of Jihadism and building this identity of "wronged population of righteous Muslims") played in dragging their country to such a pathetic state where their sovereignty doesn't mean shit. A state when one of their erstwhile allies kill their citizens with impunity and political class doesn't do much about it apart from some token grandstanding. Much as I want this navel gazing to happen, I am also aware that ruling political classes of countries are typically so sociopathic that they are incapable of feeling responsible, a fact made very convenient now that there is mean old US to point to.
India managed to avoid this trajectory. Rather than patting ourselves on the back, I am acutely aware of how close a shave it was and still is. There are strong political forces in India that want to make it a Hindu hegemony. Their tools of propaganda are just the same and quite effective, the same "wronged population of righteous Hindus that meant and did nobody any harm". If that happens we wont be that far away from a Hindu version of current Pakistan. This thought terrifies me.
@einhverfr I am replying here because I strongly suspect that what I say will touch many a nerve and will lead to a long thread hijacking the original post, and by that I dont mean you personally. Please feel free to respond in the same way. Encouraging the wronged muslim identity and consequent Jihadism was very much an "in center" phenomena in Pakistan rather than the machinations of some fringe local state. Note the use of 'was' these things go back several decades in history. I think Pakistan under Jinnah would have fared much better had he lived longer.
@r0h1n spot on.
@mcantelon sure they did, a valid question is what did people in charge then do about it.
@prometheuspk India escaped and does, but just barely. It's a complicated mess, there are political parties that exploit the fact that many in India want to avoid the religious hegemony. These parties have been getting away with things that they should not be allowed to get away with. This fuels its own blowback...You mention Malala. Malala for US is I think convenient PR fodder, something useful to screen/decorate their drone program with. I dont even think they do it conciously. Everyone wants to see themselves as compassionate and fair.
@zzsleepzz thank you for illustrating my point.
Heh! there you go. downvotes start rolling in, did not expect any different though.
Interesting, the story suddenly drops out from first page inspite of 90 upvotes in less than 3 hrs. Seems it just got flagged. That I did not see coming.
You're completely right about the relative trajectories of India and Pakistan (full disclosure: I'm Indian). I suspect most HNers will not be aware of their shared history, painful separation and subsequent diverging paths.
That said, no country ought to be above international law, even when they are targeting hapless & innocent civilians of a failing or despotic regime. That is the primary point here.
As a Pakistani I can say that our current leadership has no spine.
In addition to that the general population has been led to believe that everyone is out to get them (i.e. The righteous Muslims). You should have seen the stuff said about Malala. Even she was some kind of conspiracy against Muslims.
The TTP is real, no doubt about that (you'll find deniers here too). But the political resolve lacks because of no majority public support of the army operation in Waziristan.
India was saved from the hegemony due to public resolve to fight for it. Here everyone is either too demotivated or on the wrong side of the equation.
I would factor in self-righteousness too (e.g. Mumtaz Qadri). Once that entitlement mindset ends, only then will things become clear to the public.
EDIT: BTW you should check this (http://on.fb.me/17XcV7p) out to see the Malala bashing & the distrust of anyone but themselves.
Interesting then that the US backs the Pakistani shenanigans so throughly, do you include the US in the political class that need to take a look at themselves? I wouldn't claim to have a lot of confidence in my numbers, but the following links state greater dollars to Pakistan, by a fairly significant factor. $98.3 million for fiscal 2013, versus $2 billion for Pakistan. It's mostly military aid for Pakistan, because what they need is more weapons.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/20/world/asia/aid-to-pakistan...
US indeed has done a lot of bad shit, but I hold a leaders and formative agents of their own country to higher standards. Sure one can blame the US but what were their own leaders thinking when they consciously decided, this is the trajectory that is going to be helpful for the country.
And this to your other comment on this thread, I admire your will to engage in a dialogue. I have become much too jaded. Its as if people have become rigid and unquestioning of the history they want to believe in. Google Sunderlal report you I think will find it interesting.
Indeed. A lot of people seem to gloss over the fact that the US trained and funded Bin Laden himself, which was all well and good when he was on "our side".
I don't know about that second paragraph. The key issue is that you have only a weak central government and a lot of regional autonomy. This has costs and benefits. The costs are that the central authorities have less control. The benefits is that they don't have to use resources that could help find kidnappers in Islamabad to control tribesmen who are fiercely independent.
In the end, what's needing is an understanding that drones have two problems fundamentally associated with them. The first is that they are low-knowledge operations and thus the fact is that it is likely that the drone operators don't have a clear picture of what is really going on, and the second is that a single drone operator may be operating many drones at once, increasing the likelihood of mistakes.
If we are going to engage in targetted killings, nothing beats boots on the ground.
There's no such thing as Hindu extremism or Hindu terrorism. It's just a reaction to atrocious Islamic terrorism activities that happened/happening in India. The increase of jihadi extremists and sleeper cells in India are what that terrifies Indians.
Wow. That can't go unaddressed. Two wrongs don't make a right and "just a reaction" is a pretty terrible justification for murder. The death rate from racial problems is too high, and the only way to stop it is to stop doing it.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/NewDelhi/107-killed...
@zzsleepzz
The RSS seem extreme to me and to a lot of Indians who fear voting for Modi because they may come with him.
(not saying this is the case but that is the fear).
It is not true. The current congress govt is very corrupt. BJP is a lot less corrupt. So, the congress spreads this propaganda that modi will create problems for minorities.
At the same time I wish the political class that shaped the history of Pakistan take a tough and straight look at themselves and the role their decisions (in particular unfettered encouragement of Jihadism and building this identity of "wronged population of righteous Muslims") played in dragging their country to such a pathetic state where their sovereignty doesn't mean shit. A state when one of their erstwhile allies kill their citizens with impunity and political class doesn't do much about it apart from some token grandstanding. Much as I want this navel gazing to happen, I am also aware that ruling political classes of countries are typically so sociopathic that they are incapable of feeling responsible, a fact made very convenient now that there is mean old US to point to.
India managed to avoid this trajectory. Rather than patting ourselves on the back, I am acutely aware of how close a shave it was and still is. There are strong political forces in India that want to make it a Hindu hegemony. Their tools of propaganda are just the same and quite effective, the same "wronged population of righteous Hindus that meant and did nobody any harm". If that happens we wont be that far away from a Hindu version of current Pakistan. This thought terrifies me.
@einhverfr I am replying here because I strongly suspect that what I say will touch many a nerve and will lead to a long thread hijacking the original post, and by that I dont mean you personally. Please feel free to respond in the same way. Encouraging the wronged muslim identity and consequent Jihadism was very much an "in center" phenomena in Pakistan rather than the machinations of some fringe local state. Note the use of 'was' these things go back several decades in history. I think Pakistan under Jinnah would have fared much better had he lived longer.
@r0h1n spot on.
@mcantelon sure they did, a valid question is what did people in charge then do about it.
@prometheuspk India escaped and does, but just barely. It's a complicated mess, there are political parties that exploit the fact that many in India want to avoid the religious hegemony. These parties have been getting away with things that they should not be allowed to get away with. This fuels its own blowback...You mention Malala. Malala for US is I think convenient PR fodder, something useful to screen/decorate their drone program with. I dont even think they do it conciously. Everyone wants to see themselves as compassionate and fair.
@zzsleepzz thank you for illustrating my point.
Heh! there you go. downvotes start rolling in, did not expect any different though.
Interesting, the story suddenly drops out from first page inspite of 90 upvotes in less than 3 hrs. Seems it just got flagged. That I did not see coming.